It's no more a MiSTery

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:01 am

solskogen wrote:Yes, but the monitor itself doesn't think that it looses sync :-)
But perhaps that's due to the MiST using VGA? If it looses sync with either HDMI or DVI, the small green led becomes red.

It's up to the monitor how it's indicating that. But the symptoms: black screen, no OSD = lost sync. I would curious with an original machine now.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby RealLarry » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:12 pm

Did a complete test with Systematic Error and my MiST v1.3/VGA (STE, 4MB, TOS 1.62), Hatari (same setup) and an Atari STE/CVBS/PAL/TOS 2.06.
Speaking of the scroller/credits of the end of this demo, there are many black frames insterted with the MiST, only a few with Hatari and the STE. That said, Hatari emulates the exact behaviour of the STE.
I've made a "screen capture" with my phone from STE's video output, available at https://drive.google.com/open?id=1msMqbY6aBbgNGv5DRJ_nvCPFTvEHH5It, where you can see the black frames at least at 02:07, 02:32, 03:33 and 04:10.

But in summary the demo runs fine and with sound with MiST. No "sync lost" at monitor nor nothing. Very nice.
On the other side of the screen, it all looks so easy.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:27 am

RealLarry wrote:Speaking of the scroller/credits of the end of this demo, there are many black frames insterted with the MiST, only a few with Hatari and the STE.


Interesting! I wonder why the MiST behaviour is different -- more black frames.

Thanks for the original hardware test. :)

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:18 am

But it's not fair to compare the original 15kHz and the scandoubled VGA output. Same display, same input port is the only fair comparison.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby solskogen » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:20 am

TOS 2.06 works better than 1.62. The screen still goes of of sync a lot, but I can see the scroller more now.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:51 am

slingshot wrote:But it's not fair to compare the original 15kHz and the scandoubled VGA output. Same display, same input port is the only fair comparison.


I can't speak for how RealLarry is running the MiST, but I certainly saw more black frames on my 15khz display on the MiST than on his video of the real ST.

Not sure if he's running his ST and MiST on the same display or not, of course, so I can't say we have a true apples to apples comparison.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:40 am

ijor wrote:I didn't test it. But If indeed it depends on no joystick signal being asserted, then it is definitely a bug. And as Alex said, Ppera can probably fix it.


slingshot wrote:Even the ikbd controller is perfectly emulated in Steem, the result here depends on the virtual mouse plugged into the port. As Ijor wrote, It might be possible that even on real hardware there are no problems when a PS2-Atari mouse adapter is used. I don't think too many original Atari mouse left in a working state. Maybe a better test would be to configure a joystick on the mouse port, and hold the joystick in one direction while starting the game.


I finally got around to testing this in Steem SSE (the latest version with the low level ikbd emulation turned on). I wanted to test in exactly the same manner -- running from a virtual ACSI hard drive. Turns out setting up an ACSI hard drive image for Steem is a pain, but I got it working...

...and got it working.

I couldn't reproduce the problem, not even holding a joystick plugged into the mouse port in one direction.

I'd love to understand what happens on real hardware, as the release says it was tested on a Mega STE. I'm not completely confident that asking Ppera to fix it is worthwhile if it works on both original hardware and under emulation.

Quick question: Is Dbug's Jim Power crack doing the same thing? That too works on the old core but not on MiSTery. It freezes up in a similar spot -- upon pressing a key to start after the data has unpacked. ( http://d-bug.mooo.com/patches/2009/jimpower.rar )

Even if it's improperly written and not handling the joystick and mouse on the same port correctly, it quietly bugs me that there's software that works on an original ST but I have no way to make work on the MiST. I'm not sure there's anything to be doing about it, so I'll likely move on to the next PoV disk, now.

Anyhow, I'm sorry for the delay in testing that. Onwards!

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby RealLarry » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:42 am

jamesrc wrote:
slingshot wrote:But it's not fair to compare the original 15kHz and the scandoubled VGA output. Same display, same input port is the only fair comparison.


I can't speak for how RealLarry is running the MiST, but I certainly saw more black frames on my 15khz display on the MiST than on his video of the real ST.

Not sure if he's running his ST and MiST on the same display or not, of course, so I can't say we have a true apples to apples comparison.


Good point I forgot to mention. I've used three monitor setups for my test: Hatari/Monitor (HDMI only), MiST/Monitor (VGA only) and STE/Flat TV w/ CVBS. I could retest Hatari, MiST and STE with the Flat TV as it also has VGA besides it's CVBS.
On the other side of the screen, it all looks so easy.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:08 am

RealLarry wrote:Good point I forgot to mention. I've used three monitor setups for my test: Hatari/Monitor (HDMI only), MiST/Monitor (VGA only) and STE/Flat TV w/ CVBS. I could retest Hatari, MiST and STE with the Flat TV as it also has VGA besides it's CVBS.

Mist can work with 15kHz, too, as using VGA implies scandoubler and other logic in the TV, it won't be a true comparison again. However I feel it's a bit nitpicking to count the black frames caused by display de-sync. The demo surely does something to syncs (if anyone interested, debug it), and that's reflected in the MiST output, too.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:16 pm

slingshot wrote:
RealLarry wrote:Good point I forgot to mention. I've used three monitor setups for my test: Hatari/Monitor (HDMI only), MiST/Monitor (VGA only) and STE/Flat TV w/ CVBS. I could retest Hatari, MiST and STE with the Flat TV as it also has VGA besides it's CVBS.

Mist can work with 15kHz, too, as using VGA implies scandoubler and other logic in the TV, it won't be a true comparison again. However I feel it's a bit nitpicking to count the black frames caused by display de-sync. The demo surely does something to syncs (if anyone interested, debug it), and that's reflected in the MiST output, too.


I'm going to go run this demo later today with the OSD showing, and make sure the OSD vanishes on the black frames. That should prove conclusively that the monitor is losing sync and the demo isn't just outputting black frames.

Then I'm going to shut up about this demo (and also about Hard 'n' Heavy and Jim Power) and get back to testing disks. :lol:

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby RealLarry » Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:26 pm

slingshot wrote:
RealLarry wrote:The demo surely does something to syncs (if anyone interested, debug it), and that's reflected in the MiST output, too.

I'm very sure that it is doing something strange at the end of the demo (scrolling credits). The demo itself runs very fine and stable. When you take a closer look to the scrolling text, this text "shivers", like someone switched to interlaced video IMHO. It's difficult to see that in my video. Could capture this part with a STE and a framegrabber...
On the other side of the screen, it all looks so easy.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:32 pm

I booted up Systematic Error again and left the OSD on.

First of all, I saw far fewer black frames this time. Maybe two in three minutes.

Secondly, they were so fast, I couldn't tell if they impacted the OSD or not.

I'm calling this screen "temperamental". On real hardware and on the MiSTery core. :)

Moving on. Finally. Moving on!

<boots POV 20>

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:49 am

Through POV 20 and POV 21.

The Mega-Bob demo on POV-21 exhibits the same corruption as The ATG Demo and S.U.C.C.E.S.S when run in STE mode. As with S.U.C.C.E.S.S, the scroller is corrupted even in an emulator, but the rest of the demo is fine there.

While I haven't tested on real hardware, if it matches the other two, real hardware matches the Hatari behaviour and not the MiSTery behaviour.

Running in ST mode on the MiSTery resolves the issue, as with the other two demos.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:50 am

Just worth noting - everything else on those two disks was perfect!

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:05 am

POV 23 works perfectly.

I'm starting to hate sample demos.

Also, The Yello Demo claims (twice!) to be STE compatible. It's not. It immediately crashes and reboots on an STE.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:42 am

POV 26.

The Ultimate Demo -- This is the most broken I've seen something on this core in a long while! And it's not that broken. Hit Space to get past the credits and greets and then use the left/right cursors and return to select The Sprite Demo.

The bobs on this screen flicker like crazy. A lot of the time they vanish entirely around the middle of the screen, letting you see the background behind them. Additionally, the whole screen glitches quite frequently. This is with TOS 1.02 in ST mode.

This is yet another demo where the colours/planes are wrong when running in STE mode. Interestingly, it looks like they're correct for the first frame or two before it locks into its broken rendering. I've seen this problem lots of times on these POV disks, now.

I haven't tested the rest of POV 26, yet. It's late and I'm going to bed. :)

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:58 am

jamesrc wrote:POV 26.

The bobs on this screen flicker like crazy. A lot of the time they vanish entirely around the middle of the screen, letting you see the background behind them. Additionally, the whole screen glitches quite frequently. This is with TOS 1.02 in ST mode.

I've tried it with some fears that something must be very broken, then when I saw that part, I realized that it's almost OK :)
Yeah, there are some glitches, I think it's a slight MFP problem, sometimes the upper or lower border opening doesn't work.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby jamesrc » Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:49 pm

slingshot wrote:I've tried it with some fears that something must be very broken, then when I saw that part, I realized that it's almost OK :)
Yeah, there are some glitches, I think it's a slight MFP problem, sometimes the upper or lower border opening doesn't work.


Sorry, didn't mean to scare you. :)

The effect seems worse with some music tracks compared to others, which I put down to some tracks being more CPU intensive.

"Most broken I've seen in ages" is very relative. I think the last time I saw a problem worth mentioning was around ten disks ago.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:52 pm

jamesrc wrote:
slingshot wrote:"Most broken I've seen in ages" is very relative. I think the last time I saw a problem worth mentioning was around ten disks ago.

If this is the most broken thing, then I'm not scared any more :)

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby danielb » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:39 pm

Hello,

First of all, I should say that I really like this core, so thanks to all involved for the hard work.

However, I have been playing it side by side with a real Atari ST. The ST is a 520STFM from 1987 (bought new by me and recently refurbished). It now has a Gotek and a VGA adapter that allows it to connect directly to a Benq VGA monitor that supports 15khz. The Mist is connected to a random Samsung LCD VGA monitor. Both are running TOS 1.0 UK with 1MB RAM.

The result is that MiSTery seems to run significantly faster. I have attached a short video showing the difference in playback speed of the music in Arkanoid. Both are running the same disk image.

A couple of other points:
- The mouse response in MiSTery using a USB mouse is so fast it makes Arkanoid almost unplayable.
- The disk IO seems much slower than the Gotek, although I don't know whether this makes it more or less authentic.

Here is a link to the video. The ST is first, for the first 14 seconds or so, and then the MiSTery.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dtu8r2b7w88jce4/2020-03-27%2016.08.11.mp4?dl=0

Is this something wrong with my Mist configuration? I'd be happy to make any other tests if something thinks it's necessary.

Thanks,

Daniel

PS. I don't know whether I should mention this here, but the FXCast core on Mister seems to be much closer to the real ST :(

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby danielb » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:39 pm

Hello,

First of all, I should say that I really like this core, so thanks to all involved for the hard work.

However, I have been playing it side by side with a real Atari ST. The ST is a 520STFM from 1987 (bought new by me and recently refurbished). It now has a Gotek and a VGA adapter that allows it to connect directly to a Benq VGA monitor that supports 15khz. The Mist is connected to a random Samsung LCD VGA monitor. Both are running TOS 1.0 UK with 1MB RAM.

The result is that MiSTery seems to run significantly faster. I have attached a short video showing the difference in playback speed of the music in Arkanoid. Both are running the same disk image.

A couple of other points:
- The mouse response in MiSTery using a USB mouse is so fast it makes Arkanoid almost unplayable.
- The disk IO seems much slower than the Gotek, although I don't know whether this makes it more or less authentic.

Here is a link to the video. The ST is first, for the first 14 seconds or so, and then the MiSTery.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dtu8r2b7w88jce4/2020-03-27%2016.08.11.mp4?dl=0

Is this something wrong with my Mist configuration? I'd be happy to make any other tests if something thinks it's necessary.

Thanks,

Daniel

PS. I don't know whether I should mention this here, but the FXCast core on Mister seems to be much closer to the speed of the real ST :(

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby slingshot » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:01 pm

Maybe TOS regions are differ (PAL vs NTSC).
Or you're in Steroids mode.

Just tried it with PPera's HDInstall version, music speed is good (when playing together with the start of your recording, it's a good two-voiced music).
Check the refresh rate on the display's OSD, is it 60 or 50Hz?

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby danielb » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:10 pm

Thanks,

I meanwhile have tried with a different TOS version (1.4UK), and it seemed to play at the right speed.

I am beginning to suspect that my TOS file, which is supposed to be v1.0 UK, may be wrongly labelled. I will try to dump the TOS from my real ST, and get back with the results.

D.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby danielb » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:46 pm

Hi,

I dumped the ROM from my ST and this solves the issue. The ROM labelled TOS100UK which is all over the internet is apparently actually an NTSC version. The OSD on my screen showed 60Hz.

With the ROM that I dumped from my ST the machine runs at the correct speed and my screen's OSD shows 50Hz.

Thanks for your help,

Daniel

EDIT: This is confirmed by SysInfo. The supposedly UK ROM is actually a US version.

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Re: It's no more a MiSTery

Postby vebxenon » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:53 pm

Hi! Finally, what happened with Wolf 3D? Using original ST core and HD images from slix worked very well... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34967

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