MiST demo compatibility ?

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mfro
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Re: MiST demo compatibility ?

Postby mfro » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:25 am

joska wrote:I'm pretty sure that you can run an entire MIST core inside the Firebee FPGA, with the Coldfire doing the job of the MIST microcontroller. ...


Yes, most likely possible. But from a development standpoint, it would probably be more efficient to use the Suska components for this since most of them (except the processor core) are already there anyway and could be reused. This would also be a better fit from a language standpoint. The MiST core - except the processor - is written in Verilog while most (hopefully all soon) of the Firebee core component are VHDL.

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Re: MiST demo compatibility ?

Postby joska » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:28 am

vido wrote:I would just make HDMI/DVI decoder in FPGA and copy video output from MiST or RaPi into GEM window on the FireBee desktop. I think that would make FireBee more versatile and usable. You could share also the harddrive via NFS/Samba protocol betwen FireBee and RaPi and that would open a lot of possibilities ... :)


A video digitiser :) Yes, it will work but that's a completely different thing. You'd also need some way to redirect keyboard/mouse/joystick to the external device.

I'd rather have a complete "MIST" inside the FPGA.
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Re: MiST demo compatibility ?

Postby joska » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:33 am

mfro wrote:But from a development standpoint, it would probably be more efficient to use the Suska components for this since most of them (except the processor core) are already there anyway and could be reused.


But I guess they would have to be modified to accept "injected" data like the MIST cores do.
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Re: MiST demo compatibility ?

Postby Orion_ » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:01 am

the Firebee have so much more to add to its fpga before considering a MiST port ...
I wish someone could really contribute to speeding up the firebee memory/graphic part, or provide a simple solution to add a radeon card to the firebee pci port
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Re: MiST demo compatibility ?

Postby vido » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:11 am

joska wrote:
vido wrote:I would just make HDMI/DVI decoder in FPGA and copy video output from MiST or RaPi into GEM window on the FireBee desktop. I think that would make FireBee more versatile and usable. You could share also the harddrive via NFS/Samba protocol betwen FireBee and RaPi and that would open a lot of possibilities ... :)


A video digitiser :) Yes, it will work but that's a completely different thing. You'd also need some way to redirect keyboard/mouse/joystick to the external device.

Regarding mouse and keyboard you could modify VNC server/client not to do video stream transfer but just mouse/keboard events. Lonnys VNC client could be modified to do that and some open VNC server for the RaPi. Then you could run Hatari on RaPi and use FireBee mouse/keyboard. Or you would simply use two mouses. To play games that would be enough and if you would use joystick you would use only the one attached to RaPi.
Except playing games you would be also able to watch movies on the FireBee desktop and use other RaPi native applications :)
Or play Jaguar games ;)

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Re: MiST demo compatibility ?

Postby vido » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:15 am

Orion_ wrote:the Firebee have so much more to add to its fpga before considering a MiST port ...
I wish someone could really contribute to speeding up the firebee memory/graphic part, or provide a simple solution to add a radeon card to the firebee pci port

There allready is a simple solution to add Radeon card to FireBee PCI port. Hardware and software solution is there, it just need to be found acceptable solution regarding the price. I hope this will be soon realized.
The problem regarding Radeon card was resolved recently.

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Re: MiST demo compatibility ?

Postby Newsdee » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:55 pm

So googling a bit, I reckon the Firebee is the latest evolution of the Atari line based on a new Coldfire CPU that is similar (but not binary compatible) to the 68060?
I suppose assembly coding for that CPU feels more natural for Atari veterans? But then old stuff wouldn't work without recompilation/porting of assembly code...

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Re: MiST demo compatibility ?

Postby joska » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:59 pm

Most missing 68000 opcodes are supported through software. Recompiling or porting is usually not needed.
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Re: MiST demo compatibility ?

Postby iceman » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:26 pm

Just as a side note (not trying to derail) - I find gaming on the MiST much more satisfying than on an emulator. I've got quite a fast laptop, but there always seems to be a tiny little bit of lag with any emulators I've tried.

On the MiST, it's just like gaming on a real ST. Also, when I get bored of Xenon II, I can reset it and it's an Amiga so I can play Eye of the Beholder.
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Re: MiST demo compatibility ?

Postby mahen » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:22 pm

Most people seem to agree on this famous "lag" on emulators. Is it due to the way they are written ? To the software stack ? I used to think it was due to my Linux setup (old PC, not that good GPU / drivers, the fact FS-UAE is not optimal regarding this -- it is to be improved in the future, the fact gamepad events are only taken into account every frame --, the USB interface maybe, dunno...)

But, generally, with any emulator on PC / Raspi... I always find some lag. It can make the game unplayable or just... Harder. And gives less pleasure !

Although, I remember I did not spot this on my former PC (under Linux too) with a PS/2 interface. Maybe I was less demanding at that time ! No lag at all on the MiST anyway.
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Re: MiST demo compatibility ?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:55 pm

Are you talking about sound lag, graphics lag, input lag, or both?

There are more layers in between you and the (Atari) program you're using. Additional host OS buffering for sound, for graphics output and input...

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Re: MiST demo compatibility ?

Postby mahen » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:08 am

I'm mainly referring to input lag. I can definitely say that in some cases, input lag makes me very bad at games because of a very slight delay between a direction press and its effect on the screen (especially in shoot them ups). There are probably tons of factors that lead to this... but anyway, my point is that Amiga emulation is very demanding to get a perfect smooth lag-free 50 Hz display. And the MiST enables that out of the box, provided one had a compatible monitor.
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Re: MiST demo compatibility ?

Postby philscomputerlab » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:56 pm

Newsdee wrote:This video does a good job explaining how FPGAs are different than emulators: http://youtu.be/CVq_jzj_u8U


Great seeing my video linked here :D

My background is more Commodore, so I can only speak about C64 and Amiga demos. At first I was very impressed with the Mist. But the more I use it and try other things, the more compatibility issues, glitches appear, which is a shame.

The C64 core is quite poor IMO. I tried maybe 3 demos, and all of them have visual glitches, one crashes. I couldn't get Lotus Challenge to run either. All of these work fine on the emulator (C64 forever).

The Amiga core AGA and non-AGA seem much more refined. But there are still some glitches. In the Desert Dreams demo it seems that 3D rendering runs too fast. A friend told me it feels like it's run on an A1200. So in some animations the 3D rendering pulls ahead of the movie script. Can be seen in the Melon going past the pyramid and the rockets exploding past the ship. There is also a vertical line on the left side during the dot demo.

Again, Amiga Forever emulator displays this correctly.

So yea, my initial excitement has faded somewhat. It's a great machine, but the compatibility issues are bit disappointing.

Interesting comment about the input lag. Does this get better with faster machines? And how could one test this beyond a subjective feeling. Maybe using a camera?


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