HD Driver on the MiST?

https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

Moderators: Mug UK, Zorro 2, spiny, Greenious, Moderator Team

User avatar
mfro
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 766
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:33 am
Location: SW Germany

HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby mfro » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:53 pm

I have searched the net, but found nothing definite: did anybody manage to get HDDRIVER running on the MiST with harddisk images?

I have a working image using HDX (following the directions at the MiST wiki) but want a little more space now and eventually try to install MiNT. HDDRIVER (latest version) doesn't work for me (bombing at boot after - apparently correctly - indentification of the ACSI image).

Alternatively (if HDDRIVER can't be made to work): is there a way to suppress the - apparently indispensable - MARKBAD in HDX?

It's taking ages on large images...

User avatar
remowilliams
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:49 am

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby remowilliams » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:54 pm

I never was able to get HDDRIVER to work, I switched to ICD prepped in Steem.

User avatar
mfro
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 766
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:33 am
Location: SW Germany

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby mfro » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:01 am

Using HDX (AHDI) just now.

With a 4GB hd image file, MARKBAD (running on the MiST) has been scrubbing my SD card now for about 40 (!) hours and still only about 80% finished.

User avatar
Eero Tamminen
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:33 pm

mfro wrote:With a 4GB hd image file, MARKBAD (running on the MiST) has been scrubbing my SD card now for about 40 (!) hours and still only about 80% finished.


Running that kind of software on flash based media like SD cards is at best useless and at worst actively harming it. Flash has its internal book keeping, error correction, wear leveling & garbage collection, so sector contents aren't statically located like on old spinning-rust media. I.e. only thing that program is going to do is wear down your card.

User avatar
mfro
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 766
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:33 am
Location: SW Germany

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby mfro » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:49 pm

Eero Tamminen wrote:
mfro wrote:With a 4GB hd image file, MARKBAD (running on the MiST) has been scrubbing my SD card now for about 40 (!) hours and still only about 80% finished.


Running that kind of software on flash based media like SD cards is at best useless and at worst actively harming it. Flash has its internal book keeping, error correction, wear leveling & garbage collection, so sector contents aren't statically located like on old spinning-rust media. I.e. only thing that program is going to do is wear down your card.


Rest assured that I don't want to damage my SD card in ignorance.

Easier said than done.

I have tried to run HDX from Hatari on an image file using ACSI emulation which didn't work (at least not with the version I have). HDX insists on a MARKBAD run before it allows to partition the disk.

User avatar
MasterOfGizmo
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1215
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:15 pm
Contact:

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:42 pm

Hdx just runs fine on hatari. And the resulting HD image can just be copied to the mist and be used there.
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

User avatar
mfro
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 766
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:33 am
Location: SW Germany

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby mfro » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:04 am

MasterOfGizmo wrote:Hdx just runs fine on hatari. And the resulting HD image can just be copied to the mist and be used there.


Tried that again and failed.

The instructions at the MiST site work for me, but fail with any "nontrivial" image size larger than the 64 Mb used in the example. Tried 1 and 2 GByte.

User avatar
MasterOfGizmo
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1215
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:15 pm
Contact:

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:43 pm

I didn't try other sizes. Is this a general problem with hdx? Imho there never was a atari hdd bigger than the megafile 60.
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

User avatar
mfro
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 766
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:33 am
Location: SW Germany

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby mfro » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:58 pm

MasterOfGizmo wrote:I didn't try other sizes. Is this a general problem with hdx? Imho there never was a atari hdd bigger than the megafile 60.


Atari System V came with a 340 MB, dual bootable, HDX formatted SCSI disk. That's (although SCSI) about the largest original Atari disk I know about. So in general, HXD formatted larger disks should be possible unless there is some fundamental difference from ACSI to SCSI.

User avatar
MasterOfGizmo
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1215
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:15 pm
Contact:

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:58 pm

There _is_ a fundamental difference between acsi and scsi.
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

User avatar
MasterOfGizmo
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1215
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:15 pm
Contact:

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:37 pm

I'll have to take a close look at this. First will be to get hddriver running. Then I might perhaps add extensions that allow to use bigger disks.

However, the MIST is currently having a pretty exciting time with the imanent release of the aga core. And I just got a very promising test version of yet another new core ... unfortunately that means I have to split my attention between several projects. But in the end I am sure you'll enjoy the results. The downside is that you'll have to live with the 64mb limit for some more time.

But i'll sure have a look at that... one day ...
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

User avatar
remowilliams
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:49 am

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby remowilliams » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:01 pm

Can't wait to see the new work, sounds great! :D

As for the 64MB limit, there's always ICD...

512.disk.ICD.rar
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
MasterOfGizmo
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1215
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:15 pm
Contact:

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:49 pm

Icd is one if those extensions that allow bigger disks to be used. But that also requires hardware support inside the core.
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

User avatar
Eero Tamminen
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:24 pm

mfro wrote:
MasterOfGizmo wrote:Hdx just runs fine on hatari. And the resulting HD image can just be copied to the mist and be used there.


Tried that again and failed.

The instructions at the MiST site work for me, but fail with any "nontrivial" image size larger than the 64 Mb used in the example. Tried 1 and 2 GByte.


From Uwe's HD Driver FAQ:
http://hddriver.seimet.de/en/faq.html

* With the ACSI bus of the ST/STE mass storage devices with a capacity > 1 GiB can only be used with their full capacity with suitable host adapters or memory card adapters.
* The maximum partition size depends on the operating system and on the filesystem. TOS 1.00/1.02 support partitions of up to 256 MiB, TOS 1.04-3.06 of up to 512 MiB, TOS 4.0x of up to 1 GiB.

Additionally, I wouldn't use TOS <v1.04 with hard disk, those old TOS versions aren't reliable with larger file systems.

User avatar
mfro
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 766
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:33 am
Location: SW Germany

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby mfro » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:52 pm

Eero Tamminen wrote:* With the ACSI bus of the ST/STE mass storage devices with a capacity > 1 GiB can only be used with their full capacity with suitable host adapters or memory card adapters.
* The maximum partition size depends on the operating system and on the filesystem. TOS 1.00/1.02 support partitions of up to 256 MiB, TOS 1.04-3.06 of up to 512 MiB, TOS 4.0x of up to 1 GiB.

Additionally, I wouldn't use TOS <v1.04 with hard disk, those old TOS versions aren't reliable with larger file systems.


I don't know which kind of "host adapters" Hatari or MiST use, but was naively assuming both won't restrict their host adapter emulation to anything less than the original.
I tried TOS 1.04 and TOS 2.06 with both and got the impression that 2.06 was behaving worse than 1.04 (crash at boot).

From a hardware perspective, the ACSI bus should be good (with the "plain" Read Sector and Write Sector commands allowing 24 bit wide 512 byte sector adressing) for at least 8 GByte large devices. The rest is up to the driver.

User avatar
MasterOfGizmo
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1215
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:15 pm
Contact:

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:15 pm

The Mist isn't restricting anything. At least not by purpose.

I am currently fixing the hddriver issues and so far hddriverr boots and can read and write. Now I have to iron out some issues I have with the way hddriver determines the device size.
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

User avatar
MasterOfGizmo
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1215
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:15 pm
Contact:

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:35 pm

For those of you willing to test a very early version with HDDriver support.
http://code.google.com/p/mist-board/sou ... /hddrtest/

This version works quite well for me and i was able to format, partition and setup a 256MB image file using Uwes HDDriver 9.03

Next will be to try to access the SD card directly, so files can be stored using a PC without using image hd files. But that requires a setup which a PC can use as well as TOS and the MIST itself. Not sure if that's possible at all ...
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

User avatar
Eero Tamminen
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:44 pm

mfro wrote:I don't know which kind of "host adapters" Hatari or MiST use, but was naively assuming both won't restrict their host adapter emulation to anything less than the original.


Uwe's FAQ which I quoted, is about the original hardware.

User avatar
mfro
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 766
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:33 am
Location: SW Germany

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby mfro » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:34 pm

MasterOfGizmo wrote:For those of you willing to test a very early version with HDDriver support.
http://code.google.com/p/mist-board/sou ... /hddrtest/

This version works quite well for me and i was able to format, partition and setup a 256MB image file using Uwes HDDriver 9.03

Next will be to try to access the SD card directly, so files can be stored using a PC without using image hd files. But that requires a setup which a PC can use as well as TOS and the MIST itself. Not sure if that's possible at all ...


Great news, thanks a lot!

I only had a few minutes to test, but was able to format, partition and populate a 1GB image file using latest HDDriver.

User avatar
Gryzor
Gryzorator
Gryzorator
Posts: 1560
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 8:36 am
Location: Athens, Greece
Contact:

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby Gryzor » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:48 am

MasterOfGizmo wrote:But that requires a setup which a PC can use as well as TOS and the MIST itself. Not sure if that's possible at all ...


Apologies, can you explain what you mean? It's not very clear... (at least to me :) )

Also, is there a practical solution for reading/writing to HD files on Windows?
Reality is that, which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. --P.K.Dick

.:.
http://gryzor.info

Image

User avatar
MasterOfGizmo
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1215
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:15 pm
Contact:

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:57 pm

Currently you work with disk images stored on the sd card. Instead you could let the atari st core store files directly on the sd card so a PC would also see them. But that's way more difficult than it sounds as PCs and Atari's treat storage devices differently. I am making some progress here, but this really needs a very special formatted sd card. Hddriver should be able to do this, but this currently doesn't work as it should.
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

User avatar
christos
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2401
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:24 pm
Location: Greece
Contact:

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby christos » Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:23 am

Gryzor wrote:
MasterOfGizmo wrote:But that requires a setup which a PC can use as well as TOS and the MIST itself. Not sure if that's possible at all ...


Apologies, can you explain what you mean? It's not very clear... (at least to me :) )

Also, is there a practical solution for reading/writing to HD files on Windows?


What MasterOfGizmo means, is to format the SD card so that it is TOS/DOS compatible. For an ST that would be possible for 256MB cards and with a single partition but I have never managed to do it. What I have done using linux, is to mount the SD card to an ARANYM VM. This worked very well for me and I can see all partitions on the SD.
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
My Atari blog

STOT Email address: stot(NoSPAM)atari(DOT)org

User avatar
Gryzor
Gryzorator
Gryzorator
Posts: 1560
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 8:36 am
Location: Athens, Greece
Contact:

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby Gryzor » Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:38 am

Thanks for the explanations guys!

In a successful scenario, would it be possible to also accommodate a solution for reading disk images too? Could it be a different partition? Or maybe from a USB stick?
Reality is that, which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. --P.K.Dick

.:.
http://gryzor.info

Image

User avatar
MasterOfGizmo
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1215
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:15 pm
Contact:

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:39 am

See my latest reports here:
viewtopic.php?f=101&t=27190&p=262267#p262267

We should probably agree on one thread for this discussion.

And yes, you can use the raw SD card as ACSI0 _and_ a harddisk image as ACSI1 at the same time. But you have to be super careful as the harddisk image used for ACSI1 lies on the sd card and is visible as a file on ACSI0. Modifying that file from the "other side" will result in major confusion.

But hey, we are leaving the area of "normal end user" usage, anyway. So have fun!
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

User avatar
Gryzor
Gryzorator
Gryzorator
Posts: 1560
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 8:36 am
Location: Athens, Greece
Contact:

Re: HD Driver on the MiST?

Postby Gryzor » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:15 pm

You're right, the other thread is probably more on-topic at this point, but I'm answering here because it follows from my previous post :D

Apologies, I was not clear enough; with "disk images" I didn't mean HD images but rather floppy disk images. Because the normal scenario would be to boot off a HD system (optimally, the SD FS as you describe it) but also have access to the filesystem from the UI for floppy emulation purposes. But i guess, from your description (both raw SD *and* hardfile) this is possible. So, no special formatting needed?

[EDIT] never mind, found the readme file :D
Reality is that, which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. --P.K.Dick

.:.
http://gryzor.info

Image


Return to “MiST”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests