MiST VGA Compatibility

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby skeezix » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:01 am

Any good reviews of affordable scaler converters?
I've only tried the ST core (my main interest) and results are nasty for me..

- my main 50" LG tv.. No joy; 'invalid format'
- i have a 30" off brand lcd tv.. No joy either

(All ntsc lcd panels)

- lastly I've got an old 10" lcd vga monitor I use for debugging my own vga projects and or console in my machine toom.. It works. Tret. Its n NeC mktisync thouh, goo as gold.

So my main two tvs in the house.. Nothing.

I'm tempted to make my own frame grabber.. Not too hard; stm32 to receive the signal and buffer each frame, and spit out another vga frame.. But vga is pretty high speed and not sure I can handle one while generating another. (Generating signal is what I do now in stm32) .. Getting an hdmi chip could do though.. Rather buy something but it all seems to cost as much as the MiST itself :(

Raspberry-pi auto boot to hatari works but -thats no fun- :)
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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby Newsdee » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:59 am

Check if you're using the 60hz (NTSC) mode instead of the 50hz (PAL) one.
Also in my experience the color display is more compatible than the default B&W.
You can save a config from a setup that works (your NEC) then the MiST will default to it.

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby skeezix » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:15 pm

I'll check again .. at the time had kids climbing on me (I did get them playing Dungeon Master on my little console VGA monitor :) .. at the time I recall finding only PAL 56 and PAL 50 IIRC, and no option to switch to NTSC. Pretty sure I'm on the latest snapshot of the MIST core.

- I'll verify I've got the latest
- I'll check, maybe I had a braindead moment and just couldn't find the NTSC toggle

I'm actually pretty surprised; I've had good luck with all sorts of crazy VGA signals into these guys, but actual PAL.. no luck. Very weird. (and considering these guys aren't raw displaying the VGA, but interpreting it.. double shaming :/)

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby eeun » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:39 pm

skeezix wrote: .. at the time I recall finding only PAL 56 and PAL 50 IIRC, and no option to switch to NTSC. Pretty sure I'm on the latest snapshot of the MIST core.


This confused me when I first got my MiST. NTSC/PAL booting is determined by the TOS version you're using.

If you boot with a US TOS, MiST will start in NTSC (though like a real ST some games can pop it into 50Hz while loading).

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:04 pm

This is actually explained in display section of this Wiki page:
https://code.google.com/p/mist-board/wi ... tCoreWorks

But i agree that it isn't trivial to find ...
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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby skeezix » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:21 pm

MasterOfGizmo wrote:This is actually explained in display section of this Wiki page:
https://code.google.com/p/mist-board/wi ... tCoreWorks

But i agree that it isn't trivial to find ...


oh-ho, quite right on both counts :) You get tricked by using (or writing as in my case :) emus, where by the population of the framebuffer and the re-rendering of it are separate stages and can cheat .. and here, you don't get the luxury so much.

to quote:

In NTSC mode (when e.g. using an amercian TOS) the screen refresh rate is 60Hz. This is directly compatible with most VGA screens.

The Atari ST core provides a switch via the on-screen-display (OSD) to allow a 50Hz output or to tweak the 50Hz signal into a 56Hz signal. The downside of this is that this frequency is also available as a signal to generate software timings and some software may not work properly with 56Hz instead of 50Hz. The same video timing is used for both color video modes (ST mid 640x200 and ST low 320x200).

The Atari ST core on the MIST thus supports four video timings:

monochrome 640x400 at 72Hz (HIREZ)
color 640/320x200 at 60Hz (NTSC),
color 640/320x200 at 50Hz (PAL), and
color 640/320x200 at 56Hz (modified PAL).

--

I'll give this a shot soon, thanks!

I actually ripped my ROM out of a ST Book (which is annoying as poo, since it has no floppy, so I yanked the hdd out; at the time, no ultra-satan ..) -- I'll go find one of my US ROM rips, or just find a damned TOS file :)

(offhand, what does EmuTOS identify as, I wonder.. though sort of irrelevent, since EmuTOS won't typically play any games.)
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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby skeezix » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:36 pm

How does it determine region? UK versus US versus others? Does it possibly make mistakes? Or when in NTSC mode, does it show the PAL menu options anyway? (ie: how to know what mode the mist is running in, in that case?)

I've got a couple of US tos.img's here that still only show the PAL 50/56hz option in the Video menu (latest MIST core.) (Tried TOS 1.0 from a 520ST in Canada; tried tos1.02 US and rainbow tos 1.04, all show the PAL option.)

Randomly went and grabbed American ROMs from here, too:
http://www.avtandil.narod.ru/tose.html

Same issue.

I'll have to fiddle with the files, verify which is what, in case they're misnamed.

jeff

--> I'm fiddlign using my small LCD that alwasys works; I am guessing the PAL options always show, and I'll just have to carry the SD card back and forth and fiddle until I get it working on the big TV :) Sorry, am at work right now, so big TV not available till I get home :)
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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:05 pm

The 56hz option is always there. The io controller (the chip drawing the osd) doesn't know about the screen mode currently being used.

Most of the automation disks allow you to switch between 50 and 60 hz. You should use this if you want to see the results of changing it immediately. Use the appropriate tos if you want a permanent change. This is like it was with a real st. ST's with american tos were permanently NTSC, others were permanently pal unless some software was changing this on purpose.
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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:07 pm

Best way to tell which mode mist is in is to ask the screen. Most LCDs show Info's about the current video mode in their menu somewhere. At least all screens I own do ...
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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby skeezix » Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:02 pm

FWIW, I have no luck on my main LG TV; just 'invalid format' nomatter what.

My basement TV, 30" LG LCD NTSC, does handle it like a champ however; a no-name brand. *hu* Go figure :)

US ROM is the key there,

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby foft » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:39 pm

My LG TV is a pain too. I tried for ages to get my DE1 to drive it via the VGA port. However accurate I got the timings still 'invalid signal'. While all other monitors seemed good. iirc correctly it didn't like 3.3v, but perhaps I imagined that :-)

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby Newsdee » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:05 am

Maybe check the TV manual? My two Samsung TVs have a list of supported modes with detailes timings,
e.g. http://tv.manualsonline.com/manuals/mfg ... .html?p=11

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby mahen » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:46 am

I have a quite recent Iiyama Prolite E1706S. This is a 17" LCD, which is IMHO a great size for playing old games at a small distance.

The result is really the best I achieved so far with a Mist / Minimig / Amiga emulator in general, especially with scanlines.

- there is no pixel distortion
- 50 Hz mode works perfectly (Amiga core)

The only "problem" is that depending on the speed and direction, the scrollings can sometimes not feel 100% smooth (especially in pinball games) or a tiny bit blurry, although it does look great most of the time. So I'm pretty sure it's inherent to using an LCD with a matrix that doesn't correspond to the original video mode anyway.

But really, if you're struggling, this is a nice pick, you can still find it nowadays. It gives a great experience, maybe not as perfect as a 1084 Commodore monitor but you're not damaging your eyes (and as a plus, it's a low consumption LCD) !

I'm already really happy to get such a great results for 320x256 games in 2014 ; most of them still look GREAT while it's a catastrophy on a modern big LCD with some emulators not configured in an optimal way + lack of 50 Hz etc etc.

----- I'm still eager to know if some of you found a monitor that delivers a perfectly smooth vertical scrolling in pinball games, though.
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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby Newsdee » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:28 am

Interestingly, the manual for the IIyama mentions it supports PC9801 resolutions/timings (24khz and 56hz vertical):
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/606017 ... =37#manual
I guess that explains why it is more versatile.

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:05 pm

mahen wrote:I have a quite recent Iiyama Prolite E1706S. This is a 17" LCD, which is IMHO a great size for playing old games at a small distance.


i've started a wiki page at http://code.google.com/p/mist-board/wiki/Displays for exactly this purpose. If you provide the information here i can add it to the wiki page.
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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby remowilliams » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:01 pm

I'm using a VIZIO E241i-B1 24-Inch which works excellently (50/60hz) with the noted exceptions so far of

- No C64 video
- No ZX81 video

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby mahen » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:28 pm

MasterOfGizmo : OK then ! Can you please add the following screen to the list ?

Iiyama Prolite E1706S
Size : 17" 1280x1024
50 Hz : yes
15 KHz : no
Comments: Amiga : great picture with scanlines ; some scrollings (pinballs) not 100% smooth

I'm not sure about the rating column though : how to interpret it ?

As far as my personal experience goes I would give it 4 out of 5 so 80% but are there objective criterias ? For instance, do the monitors that got 90 or 95% have the same issues I have with scrollings not being 100% smooth ? (in Pinball games on the Amiga ; or in the NES core...) ? If those issues are LCD inherent and here with all screens maybe I would raise the rating to 90%... But again, it's very difficult to compare those ratings made by different people, this can be misleading. (maybe my Iiyama picture is the best possible in the world, or maybe it's the worst for a display that accepts 50 Hz, no idea ;)

Cheers !!
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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby eeun » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:27 pm

Samsung SyncMaster 715v
17" U.S. 120V model VGA D-sub 15 input

Everything I've thrown at it so far works. 50, 56, 60Hz no problem.
Games look great. ST Med. res. shows a little distortion in text and bg patterns typical of LCDs with MiST.

Doesn't do 15 kHz, but that would be expecting too much from a VGA monitor. ;)

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby SLiX » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:31 pm

Hi guys, here is some feedback about the displays I've tested:

* LG Flatron M1994D-PZ (19" 1680x1050 Monitor/TV):
- 50Hz: Yes
- 15KHz: No

* IIyama ProLite E2607WS (26" 1920x1200 Monitor)
- 50Hz: Yes
- 15KHz: No

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby Newsdee » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:51 pm

Tested the GBS8200 successfully (cheap VGA upscaler). See this thread or the wiki for details: viewtopic.php?f=101&t=27019

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby kolla » Fri May 06, 2016 1:21 pm

I have yet to find any TV that can handle any output from the MIST, either VGA or 15kHz, allthough most computer monitors do. Right here I have a Sony LCD, an LG plasma, and a cheap Orion LCD TV, and all I get is "unknown mode" or "unknown signal". I do find this puzzling, since all the TVs and monitors handle "the same" output from the original Minimig just fine.

On many of the TFT/LCD computer monitors that do show up picture from the MIST, I notice an extreme case of "afterglow", even long after I unplug the MIST and move the VGA cable back to a PC/Mac, I can still see the a shadow ghost of the Workbench, it can take up to half an hour before it finally vanishes. This tells me the MIST is doing something pretty... nasty, with its VGA signal.
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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby kolla » Fri May 06, 2016 1:22 pm

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby Doozer » Fri May 06, 2016 3:46 pm



Hi kolla,

Nothing to worry about on the picture aspect. You have remaining/ghosting effect coming from the extra processing done on the picture by your TV set. You can easily get rid of them by turning all advanced picture treatments off (motion, 120Hz, and so...)

Depending of the TV input, the VESA standards restriction could prevent to use frequencies below 56Hz. PAL 50Hz can only be achieve on limited LCD screen. The ST has 56Hz as default and should just run fine (try deleting the config to be safe with V-freq). Minimig and FPGA64 both run with 50Hz by default and this could leave you with a blank/bad signal screen.
Last work is for mist global configuration in which scandoubler should not be disabled. Otherwise you will try to do 15Khz horizontal instead of the VESA 31Hz.

Cheers,

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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby kolla » Sat May 07, 2016 3:04 am

Well, those shots are not from a TV, but from a PC monitor (one of many Dell monitors I have tried), with default settings, no extra processing going on. On the monitors affected, it is quite annoying and disturbing, it burns in for quite some time. With original Minimig and the exact same monitors, there is no such effect. The MIST Minimig core, as far as I know, supports both PAL (50Hz) and NTSC (60Hz), which one can toggle in Early Startup using the space bar. On original Minimig, both PAL and NTSC work fine on just about all monitors and TVs I have tried, but with MIST I never got a picture on a TV (using VGA input), only PC monitors. I have not disabled scan doubling in mist.ini.

I do have a few monitors, with which the MIST works perfectly fine (Eizo and BenQ) without any effects, but I am curious how it can be that the original Minimig v1.1 seems to have a much more compatible output signal.
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Re: MiST VGA Compatibility

Postby kolla » Sun May 15, 2016 9:50 am

Is there any core I can expect to produce a fairly accurate VGA compatible signal?

I just tried the menu core (https://github.com/sorgelig/Menu_MIST/b ... 160430.rbf), but still no luck on this Samsung TV. I also have a VGA2HDMI adapter, but it is not happy with any signals so far either. Many TVs today simply have no SCART :)

And again, what really puzzles me is that the original Minimig has none of these issues with VGA, it just works fine everywhere :roll:
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