MiST - FPGA ST

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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby Dal » Fri May 31, 2013 9:55 pm

But no ROM port for copy protection dongles?
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:47 am

Dal wrote:But no ROM port for copy protection dongles?


Nope. Are there any schematics of these? It may be fun to integrate the dongle into the FPGA config.
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby Dal » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:38 am

Simbo started to work on cloning it. Nothing released yet though:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=20130
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:52 am

Dal wrote:Simbo started to work on cloning it. Nothing released yet though:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=20130


Indeed he never released anything. And the explanations given in that thread are rather vague.

Thinking about this a little more, the MIST would imho be the perfect use case for this. You'd get the built-in dongle basically for free (as the FPGA would be able to do this) and you'd get a cheap machine with the perfect original low latency timing of a real st.

Has someone ever tried to implement the dongle in one of the emulators? It should e.g. be possible to emulate the dongle as part of hatari. The source code of that would probably be sufficient to do the same with the mist board.
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:34 pm

I looked a little bit into the cubase dongle issue. I managed to build something that cubase accepts as a valiud dongle, but i am sure it's not complete. It's definitely sufficient for some little demo and to play a song or two with an unpatched cubase on the mist board. But for serious work (say: cubase running stable over hours) seriously more work needs to be spent.
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby matt » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:48 pm

Nice work.

What happens with your solution over an extended period? Cubase crashes?

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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:34 pm

matt wrote:What happens with your solution over an extended period?


I don't know as i didn't try. I am not a musician, so i don't have a real use for this. I have sent Dal all the files so far via PM. So whoever is willing to spend some more time of this is welcome.
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST 20 pin header

Postby johncarteronmars » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:39 am

INFO please : is the 20 pin header on the upcoming MIST board for ACSI connections
or some other reason, if it is, then we will be able to use builtin SD/slot for floppy etc
and this 20 pin header for Satan disk / ultra satan ???????

I believe this is marked S1 on schematic but I don't have more than a clue about
reading what it is for

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Re: MiST - FPGA ST 20 pin header

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:02 am

johncarteronmars wrote:INFO please : is the 20 pin header on the upcoming MIST board for ACSI connections
or some other reason


It's the JTAG connector of the ARM controller. There is no physical ACSI port on the MIST.

This MIST has the following connectors (i should make an image for this):

  • 1 * VGA (currently with nearly-VGA timing only, no 15kHz implemented, although it's possible)
  • 1* Analog stereo audio via 3.5mm jack (atari core delivers mono only)
  • 4 * USB host for mouse, keyboard
  • 2 * DB9 for classic Atari joysticks
  • 1 * Micro USB for power supply and ARM controller emergency flashing
  • 1 * SD card
  • 1 * internal 20 pin ARM JTAG for ARM firmware development
  • 1 * internal 10 pin FPGA JTAG for FPGA core development
  • 1 * internal 4 pin ARM serial TTL for ARM controller debugging
  • 1 * internal 4 pin FPGA expander for MIDI add-on, real RS232, ...

As you see the MIST doesn't have most of the typical atari ST interfaces. Implementing these is usually expensive as you'd need an FPGA with more pins and additional level shifters as mordern chips run at 3.3V or less and all atari interfaces are 5V.

If you need the original ports i recommand a suska.

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Last edited by MasterOfGizmo on Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby johncarteronmars » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:37 pm

TKS MasterofGizmo
No don't want Suska , have already preordered from Lotharek , MIST,
just trying to get all info as I can on what I will be getting, hoping for
some documentation at some point as to operation of the MIST and how
to use the SD card reader for HD and floppy use, what imgs will be used ?
I was kinda lost even with the Ultrasatan and HxC but got lots of info and
help here in forum and elsewhere on net. For the 14mb ram and VGA
in Mono any and all workarounds will be more than welcome.

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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby xc8 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:34 pm

@johncarteronmars

as I understand mate, the MiST can use a HDD image from Hatari (eg. like the 1GB image from PP's site: http://8bitchip.info/atari/DiskImgPP1.html)

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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby joska » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:19 pm

It looks like it's not possible to connect a proper (IKBD) keyboard to it, is this correct?
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:43 pm

joska wrote:It looks like it's not possible to connect a proper (IKBD) keyboard to it, is this correct?


I wouldn't say "not possible". At this moment there's no way, indeed. But nothing prevents you from changing the FPGA config to expect a real keyboard on those pins used for the MIDI add-on or to attach the keyboard to one of the joystick ports and modify the IO controller firmware accordingly.

The design goal of the MIST was to omit all the stuff only few people have a use for. This includes the ROM port as well as the IKBD port, the RS232 port, the ACSI port etc etc ... especially since here already is a board that was meant to implement all these (the suska). My goal was to do the opposite, to e.g. allow to use modern USB keyboards and mice instead of old PS/2 ones or even real atari/ikbd ones.

Hackers are welcome. You could even build a ikbd/usb converter and attach that via usb. With a little more hacking you could then use that on hatari and other emulators as well. Unfortunately there a way more ideas than there's time to implement them ...
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:48 pm

xc8 wrote:@johncarteronmars

as I understand mate, the MiST can use a HDD image from Hatari (eg. like the 1GB image from PP's site: http://8bitchip.info/atari/DiskImgPP1.html)


Yes it can. Although i have never tested this particular image.

Setting up a harddisk image is rather trivial. I just put some random 16MB file onto my SD card, named it "harddisk.img" and told the MIST to use that for harddisk emulation. I then also placed a atari floppy disk image containing ahdi on the same SD card and told the MIST to use that as a floppy. The following setup of the harddisk was identical to a real st. The Atari TOS just acted as it this were real floppies and real harddisks.

You can do the same in hatari and then just transfer the resulting harddisk image onto the SD card and tell the MIST board to use that. The result is exactly the same.
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby joska » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:20 pm

MasterOfGizmo wrote:But nothing prevents you from changing the FPGA config to expect a real keyboard on those pins used for the MIDI add-on or to attach the keyboard to one of the joystick ports and modify the IO controller firmware accordingly.


Yes, nothing except my non-existing FPGA skills ;)

MasterOfGizmo wrote:You could even build a ikbd/usb converter and attach that via usb. With a little more hacking you could then use that on hatari and other emulators as well.


I have already made such a device, it's in use in a few PC-in-a-ST-cabinet projects already. So this is an option. When/if the MiST supports extended videomodes (e.g. overscan on a SM124 or 1280x1024 on a suitable VGA monitor) and 14Mb RAM I will most likely buy one.
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby polbit » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:12 am

This is too hard to pass up, I just pre-ordered. I'm also putting my vote in for an STE emulation and turbo mode. Cant wait to start playing with it!

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Re: MiST - FPGA ST Keyboard and Mouse Wireless???

Postby johncarteronmars » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:15 pm

Are there any specific requirements for keyboard and mouse for
MIST or will just about any USB versions work with system and since almost
all USB mice have wheel is it just a moot point. Also will the wireless
meeses and keyboards work or will there be interferece trouble with
MIST. I would like to get these before the MIST comes and be ready.

TKS in advance.\
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST Keyboard and Mouse Wireless???

Postby Gryzor » Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:38 am

johncarteronmars wrote:Are there any specific requirements for keyboard and mouse for
MIST or will just about any USB versions work with system and since almost
all USB mice have wheel is it just a moot point. Also will the wireless
meeses and keyboards work or will there be interferece trouble with
MIST. I would like to get these before the MIST comes and be ready.

TKS in advance.\
CUL
AZ


Have the same questions myself...

On another note, I found a nice USB charger that outputs a nice 2A, should be more than enough to connect anything I would guess!
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:59 am

Are there any specific requirements for keyboard and mouse for MIST

Any mouse and keyboard should be fine. But there are exceptions. The MIST expects to be able to put the devices into the so-called "HID Boot mode". This is a simplified protocol primarily designed for use e.g. in the PC BIOS. All keyboards i've tested so far work. But few mice don't (i cannot tell atm whether this is a bug in my firmware or in the mouse firmware).

Also the mouse parts in some wireless mouse/keyboard combos doesn't work. E.g. the Logitech K400 http://www.logitech.com/de-de/product/wireless-touch-keyboard-k400-business?crid=656 works nicely, but the touchpad of the Rii http://www.riitek.com/en/product-104.html doesn't. My firmware isn't able to put these into HID Boot Mode. Again, this may be a bug in my firmware, but it may also be a bug in the Rii's firmware.

On another note, I found a nice USB charger that outputs a nice 2A, should be more than enough to connect anything I would guess!


Sure! The board itself draws ~300mA (depending a little bit on core type and usage). You'll also need some mA for your USB keyboard. But that's it. 2A is plenty. Any standard charger providing 1.2A (that's what the USB spec demands) is sufficient.
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby Gryzor » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:05 am

Thanks for the reply (that's the kind of stuff I meant when I was discussing a manual :) ). I'll try a cheap mouse/keyboard combo and see how it goes...

As for the current, nice to know it draw as little as 300mAh. Of course anything after that is not your problem :D
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:30 am

Gryzor wrote:Thanks for the reply (that's the kind of stuff I meant when I was discussing a manual :) ). I'll try a cheap mouse/keyboard combo and see how it goes...

As for the current, nice to know it draw as little as 300mAh. Of course anything after that is not your problem :D


Some of the new documentation at http://code.google.com/p/mist-board/ should answer such questions.
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby Gryzor » Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:30 pm

MasterOfGizmo wrote:
Some of the new documentation at http://code.google.com/p/mist-board/ should answer such questions.


Great, thanks!! :)

One question: when you talk about "keyboard/mouse" combos, do you meant he ones where the keyboard has a trackball/pad on it, like the Logitech you mentioned, or also sets (like the mk200 - http://www.logitech.com/en-za/product/8411) that use one receiver for both kb/mouse? Would these work?

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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby Gryzor » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:35 pm

Another question, hope someone can answer it: if my monitor (a Dell U2410F) doesn't support all the resolutions of the FPGA, are there any solutions, other than buying a new monitor that is?

Thanks!
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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby xc8 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:44 pm

Gryzor wrote:Another question, hope someone can answer it: if my monitor (a Dell U2410F) doesn't support all the resolutions of the FPGA, are there any solutions, other than buying a new monitor that is?

Thanks!
T


I just read the the specs of this monitor and I think its ok, but its a widescreen, so you may see the output "stretched", unless there is an option to see the 4:3 with black (side) borders.

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Re: MiST - FPGA ST

Postby Gryzor » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:14 am

xc8 wrote:I just read the the specs of this monitor and I think its ok, but its a widescreen, so you may see the output "stretched", unless there is an option to see the 4:3 with black (side) borders.


Ah thanks, you give me hope :) Crossing fingers...

It's quite an advanced monitor, with aspect choices and even scanline grille* for that authentic look, so I guess the 1:1 option will work as intended.

But, are there any boxes like the Amiga scandoubler that would help work with monitors that don't natively support the resolutions?

Thanks again, and have a great day!
T

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