Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

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Foebane
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Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby Foebane » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:55 pm

I'm testing 3.9.3 on this demo:
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=65921

I usually use this demo when testing new versions of SSE, and I am disappointed in the graphical glitches that appear in some still images (like the opening boat on the sea) until I select an item in the "Wake up" dialog next to "ST model". I have always ignored this, but I fail to see why all of a sudden, I need to use it, when I didn't on older versions of SSE. What's worse, it doesn't remember the setting when I quite SSE and restart. What am I doing wrong, according to my .ini?

I am on Win7 Ultimate SP1. Steem.ini included. TOS is tos162uk.rom.
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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby Steven Seagal » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:47 pm

Hi,
It's a nice demo. I hope that with the right settings it runs OK now (no more sound clicks?)

1. Yes, the STE defaults to another state in v3.9.3, because I was told it's more prevalent on real hardware and because it is compatible with some enhanced games that suppose the state corresponds to "WU1" in Steem SSE. The idea is that the dude checking some games knows less than the one checking some demos.

Look here:
http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=31961
AtariZoll even uploaded a Steem 3.2 update with this wakestate. I must adapt or be wiped out! :)

2. The "wakestate" is saved with the snapshot, not with the config, you're doing nothing wrong. It's been like this since "wakeup" was introduced in Steem, but it could change too.

So those are not bugs but features. :)
But I have an open mind, those features can change. Just vote.
Note that without 'Advanced Settings', wakeup is random on each cold reset.

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby Foebane » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:31 am

It's been several days now and I've used 3.9.3 with a lot of issues now, related to demos and the "wakestate", I find they no longer work as they did under "ignore", with several glitches and so forth and I don't know which wakestate works best with them, and I don't want to have to make a silly list when I shouldn't need to. :(

Congratulations, Steven, you've just made Steem SSE SUCKIER to use! :(

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby Foebane » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:07 am

To clarify, Steven, I read on other threads that you fixed the audio, and that's to be commended, but then you go ahead and make it necessary to select wakestates, when before we didn't have to bother with that at all. Why did you fix one thing and break another? I don't care if the change was to make the emulation "more authentic" to a real STE, it wasn't needed.

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby Steven Seagal » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:35 am

First of all it's not my fault if edgy programmers display wakeup-dependent pictures! It's a serious problem on real hardware too.
On the one hand, people tell me it should be in such state for games, on the other hand, other people tell me it should be in such state for demos.
If you check the current 3.9.4 beta, the wakeup option is now sticky, so set it to "WU2" for your little demos ;) and forget it.

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby Foebane » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:26 pm

Steven Seagal wrote:First of all it's not my fault if edgy programmers display wakeup-dependent pictures! It's a serious problem on real hardware too.
On the one hand, people tell me it should be in such state for games, on the other hand, other people tell me it should be in such state for demos.
If you check the current 3.9.4 beta, the wakeup option is now sticky, so set it to "WU2" for your little demos ;) and forget it.


Sorry if I've come across as a bit rude, but I didn't know how serious a problem this was on ST/E hardware - you must be frustrated at having to code for all eventualities and demands. However, there's no need to "belittle" the Demoscene ;)

By the way, which WU2 should I set? There's two of 'em.

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby Steven Seagal » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:23 pm

Any of them should do.
I belittle demos because I belittled games in that other thread. :)

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby Foebane » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:10 pm

Aaahhh, that explains it. :D

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby amilo3438 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:21 pm

Steven Seagal wrote:
1. Yes, the STE defaults to another state in v3.9.3, because I was told it's more prevalent on real hardware and because it is compatible with some enhanced games that suppose the state corresponds to "WU1" in Steem SSE. The idea is that the dude checking some games knows less than the one checking some demos.

Look here:
http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=31961
AtariZoll even uploaded a Steem 3.2 update with this wakestate. I must adapt or be wiped out! :)


STE T162UK 4069K (demos)
--------------------------------
- HighResMode --> w/o bad pixel stripes if wake-up = WU2!
- 20 yrs STE --> w/o bad pixel stripes if wake-up = WU2!
- VGA slideshow --> w/o bad pixel stripes if wake-up = WU2!
- Sea of Colour --> w/o bad pixel stripes if wake-up = WU2!
- Circusbs --> w/o bad pixel stripes if wake-up = WU2!
- iag2_fin --> w/o bad pixel stripes if wake-up = WU2!

And there are probably more... what can make a bad impression on the emu!

I am a little curious about a list of "some enhanced games that suppose the state corresponds to "WU1" in Steem SSE"!? (do you have one?)
I guess/hope this decision is not done just because "someone told it"... without being checked.

Cheers!

:?:
Is "WU1" state prevalent on real hardware after power switch off/on?
What state prevalent after reset key on real hardware?
Maybe demo authors used "WU2" just because it usually happens after reset key!?
If so, maybe Steem SSE can be made to change state on reset too!
Maybe some of above mentioned demos reset itself before starts!
Whats happening with the demos on your real STE after power switch off/on and after reset?

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby Steven Seagal » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:37 pm

On my STE, dots on edgy demos are frequent, I'd say it's 50%.
The dude has several STE's, so better stats.
To me it's no big deal reverting it, as I said your voice counts, for the moment it is 2 vs 1. :mrgreen:

http://atari.8bitchip.info/fromhd.php

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby amilo3438 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:22 pm

Thx. for testing on a real machine...
So, if its frequent 50%, now depends what someone prefer more, demos or games! :wink:

Cheers!

Ps. I have no problem if only use STE, as it is sticky now...
But as, while testing demos, have to change from ST to STE usually forget to set back to WU2, what knows to be pretty frustrating sometimes.

Btw. why is there in wake-up states still an option "ignore"? (f.e. in Hatari is "random" instead)
We cannot "ignore" wake-up states as one of them exist in a real machine, right? :)

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby Steven Seagal » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:52 pm

I was giving you a personal statistic since I check demos on my STE, not a recent test.

Unless other people chime in to defend the current default, I'll change it in next version, it's just a line of code.
But that's no bug. Just adapting to unsafe programmer practices! :mrgreen:
What the emulator is giving you is what happens quite a lot on real hardware.

'Ignore' defaults to STF WS3, STE WS1 for the timings but some "shifter tricks" are then ignored, as you saw yourself.
Don't forget that this option is available only under 'advanced' settings. Without the latter, a random state is chosen at cold reset.

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby amilo3438 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:21 pm

Steven Seagal wrote:'Ignore' defaults to STF WS3, STE WS1 for the timings but some "shifter tricks" are then ignored, as you saw yourself.
Don't forget that this option is available only under 'advanced' settings. Without the latter, a random state is chosen at cold reset.

Yeah, I would not find that problem if I had wake-up state on ignore:
- European demos / OVR II --> Overlander , logos gliches in all wake-up states but looks fine in ignore!

So the only "benefit" of having "ignore" is to disable timings of "shifter tricks"!? (what for, dont understand the purpose)
Would not it be better to have "default" instead, that is remembered as last choosing in wake-up state, for example!?
(just thinking, not demanding) :wink:

Steven Seagal wrote:Unless other people chime in to defend the current default, I'll change it in next version, it's just a line of code.

Hmm, if that means some timings of "shifter tricks" will be disabled if current "WU2" will defaults as "ignore"!?
If yes than I will still have to change to "WU1" instead of "ignore" to enable some timings of "shifter tricks", right?
Maybe better to leave it as it is than. :)
Last edited by amilo3438 on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby Steven Seagal » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:37 pm

No, 'ignore' defaults to the wakestates I said for frequency and compatibility reasons, but some "shifter tricks" are then not tested.
Like "destabilisation" (Bee demos, etc.).
In the case of OVRII, it allows you to have the demo without glitch.
It makes sense because the test for "destabilisation" is not precise enough for the moment.

EDIT
So to be clear, no "timings" are disabled, only some rare shifter tricks are not analysed.

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby amilo3438 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:43 pm

Oh, that was a reason, thx.(I understood it wrong) :?

So, in ignore "only some rare shifter tricks are not analysed"! (I get it) :wink:

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby Steven Seagal » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:51 pm

It is one of the confusing options in Steem SSE, and that's why it is now hidden unless option 'Advanced Settings' is checked.

'Ignore' would disable more analysis in v3.9.2. Normally, the demo "Closure" works whatever the option in v3.9.3 (still need ADAT, not my fault :mrgreen: ) but in v3.9.2 you needed to select one WS + Hacks.

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Re: Graphical glitches in 3.9.3 linked to "Wake up" state

Postby amilo3438 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:39 pm

Yes I noticed improvements... this was the main reason for motivation in doing this new demo testing.
Of course, this one is not that huge as one did about almost 2 yrs ago (if you remember), but enough to see/check if emu works fine.

Btw. I probably finish with testing tomorrow, as only few demos left to test in my collection!
On pouet there are much more, but not needed and it would be wasting of time, as already checked also problematic demos from last demo testing.

Cheers!


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