Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

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Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby Robson » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:40 pm

I have a disk I'd like to dump but after I create the ST file with floimg the produced file won't do anything in the Emulator (steem/hatari).
Only disk activity shows but nothing loads.
Attached the file, a Hungarian diskmag.

There is a protection but I'm not sure how to progress.

All help would be appreciated.
bomba04.ST
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby dlfrsilver » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:22 am

you use actually a real PC drive 1.44mb ?

Download the program STrecover, and before installing it, install the low level floppy driver in order to be able to image disk with 800 or 900kb, and special format.

First link : http://simonowen.com/fdrawcmd/FdInstall.exe

Second link : https://strecover.codeplex.com/downloads/get/355962
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby Robson » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:36 am

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, internal fdd, I had no probs before.

The protection is the pain, the suggested strecover stops at the end (I think) after reading the protection bit with "operation terminated" message.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby alexh » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:08 am

I think you'll need a hardware device such as Kryoflux or Supercard Pro

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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby Robson » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:32 am

Pasti worked. -Thanks for the replies.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:39 am

Hungarian diskmag ? I would like to see it !
P.S. - I reached menu after doing some kind of crack, but can not select with mouse. Maybe because more protection, maybe TOS version ?
Pasti image would be nice, especially because I'm who done FloImg :D
bomba04_001.png
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby Robson » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:02 am

Thanks.
It will all be published here. I passed the file over to lotek_style.
It was issue 4 missing. Attached.

http://demozoo.org/groups/57599/

What exactly did you do? I'd be interested.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby Robson » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:08 am

AtariZoll wrote:Hungarian diskmag ? I would like to see it !
P.S. - I reached menu after doing some kind of crack, but can not select with mouse. Maybe because more protection, maybe TOS version ?
Pasti image would be nice, especially because I'm who done FloImg :D
bomba04_001.png


The mouse should change at the black highlighted text and click would take you to another text based page.
I tried with tos 1.04 and standard 1MB ST.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:18 am

Thanx Robson . 444 is OK, it's STX, and works with TOS 1.04 in Steem. But what is on Lotek_style site is : error in Steem right after opening attempt - format is invalid. - It seems that problem is 12 sectors/track. So, Pasti need to be off. Then it works fine :D
Conclusion, you should try with FloImg again - just type there 12 sector/track before imaging. Not sure that PC floppy controller can do it though - I never had such floppy.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby Robson » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:35 am

AtariZoll wrote:Thanx Robson . 444 is OK, it's STX, and works with TOS 1.04 in Steem. But what is on Lotek_style site is : error in Steem right after opening attempt - format is invalid. - It seems that problem is 12 sectors/track. So, Pasti need to be off. Then it works fine :D
Conclusion, you should try with FloImg again - just type there 12 sector/track before imaging. Not sure that PC floppy controller can do it though - I never had such floppy.


Issue 1 doesn't open. KK was fine. With Bomba 2 you need to hit space to get to menu at the map, if you let the music playing it will crash. Not tested the others yet but they worked before, I'm sure.

I have other bomba disks received yesterday as well and I'll do the image for those too. It was a bloody long hunt.

Thanks for the advice. I'll try that later.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby Robson » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:57 am

AtariZoll wrote: So, Pasti need to be off. Then it works fine :D


I missed this one for those images. You're right.

Anyway I'll put the rest of the stx images I can create in this thread.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby dlfrsilver » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:56 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Thanx Robson . 444 is OK, it's STX, and works with TOS 1.04 in Steem. But what is on Lotek_style site is : error in Steem right after opening attempt - format is invalid. - It seems that problem is 12 sectors/track. So, Pasti need to be off. Then it works fine :D
Conclusion, you should try with FloImg again - just type there 12 sector/track before imaging. Not sure that PC floppy controller can do it though - I never had such floppy.


a standard PC floppy controller can't copy a 12 sectors format. You need a kryoflux board to write such a format :)
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:06 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:Thanx Robson . 444 is OK, it's STX, and works with TOS 1.04 in Steem. But what is on Lotek_style site is : error in Steem right after opening attempt - format is invalid. - It seems that problem is 12 sectors/track. So, Pasti need to be off. Then it works fine :D
Conclusion, you should try with FloImg again - just type there 12 sector/track before imaging. Not sure that PC floppy controller can do it though - I never had such floppy.


a standard PC floppy controller can't copy a 12 sectors format. You need a kryoflux board to write such a format :)


I don't want to copy, just to make image. But it may be that even can not read - if gaps are very small may happen that missing sector header or start.
In any case it is worth of try. ST image posted here has wrong parameters from some reason.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:11 pm

Here is Bomba4 deprotected (cracked) ST image:
BOMBA4D.ZIP

It is only single sided. Code is encrypted, and I left it so, because was easier to change couple encrypted bytes than changing 2 stage loader.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby dlfrsilver » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:19 pm

AtariZoll wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:Thanx Robson . 444 is OK, it's STX, and works with TOS 1.04 in Steem. But what is on Lotek_style site is : error in Steem right after opening attempt - format is invalid. - It seems that problem is 12 sectors/track. So, Pasti need to be off. Then it works fine :D
Conclusion, you should try with FloImg again - just type there 12 sector/track before imaging. Not sure that PC floppy controller can do it though - I never had such floppy.


a standard PC floppy controller can't copy a 12 sectors format. You need a kryoflux board to write such a format :)


I don't want to copy, just to make image. But it may be that even can not read - if gaps are very small may happen that missing sector header or start.
In any case it is worth of try. ST image posted here has wrong parameters from some reason.


Oh sorry, let me be more precise : a standard PC floppy controller can't READ a disk using a 12 sector format.

A PC controller is limited to 10 sectors max. Remember the troubles we had to image ST disks with 11 sectors on a PC :)
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby AtariZoll » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:39 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:...
Oh sorry, let me be more precise : a standard PC floppy controller can't READ a disk using a 12 sector format.
A PC controller is limited to 10 sectors max. Remember the troubles we had to image ST disks with 11 sectors on a PC :)


As usual, dlfrsilver enlightens us with crap :mrgreen: 1.44 MB floppies have 18 sectors/track. 11 sectors/track can be read well in most cases. As I said, all depends on gaps. Please stop talking about deep technical details - or learn some things first.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby dlfrsilver » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:16 pm

AtariZoll wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:...
Oh sorry, let me be more precise : a standard PC floppy controller can't READ a disk using a 12 sector format.
A PC controller is limited to 10 sectors max. Remember the troubles we had to image ST disks with 11 sectors on a PC :)


As usual, dlfrsilver enlightens us with crap :mrgreen: 1.44 MB floppies have 18 sectors/track. 11 sectors/track can be read well in most cases. As I said, all depends on gaps. Please stop talking about deep technical details - or learn some things first.


Having a drive 1.44mb is one thing, of course it can have 18 sectors per track but ONLY in high density mode.

But this is not what i'm talking about. I'm talking about double density disk with 11 or 12 sectors per track. Learn your facts. :contract:

The most important part here is the FDC controller. a standard PC FDC controller CAN'T image disks with 11 sectors per track (or at best with a lot of problems.)

With a kryoflux, i can read of write any disk format, whatever the track length, either on a 720kb disk drive or a 1.44mb disk drive.

The only way to image an 11 sectors (or 12 sectors at best) correctly, is to image the disk with pasti directly on an ST (the WD1772 allows 11 sectors when the upd365/clone/whatever used on PC can't), otherwise, you can use a kryoflux to make stream files, and in the end generates either an STX or an IPF.

You're a great coder, but it's incredible how you're lacking on some hardware knowledge......
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby exxos » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:41 pm

Wasn't 12 and 14 sectors needing 12mhz on the 1772 ? I can't see any floppies using 12 sectors , though I have known people hack their machines that way.

PC drives, or any 1.44 drive can be stuck in only reading regular formats. Some may support extended sectors like the MPF series, but some drives are really bad and only support stock 720k & 1.44 formats.

Atarizoll has software which can read ST floppies on the PC, though I don't know what formats it can ultimately read. I tried formatting a 11 sector 82 tracks floppy on my STFM and I can't get it to read on my PC using FLOIMG :shrug:
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby JimDrew » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:31 am

I have seen 12 sectors on a PC disk, and this was accomplished by writing the data at a slightly faster data rate than normal and reducing the gap size.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:29 am

Thread went a bit off topic, but if you want discuss with me about floppy controllers, I'm your guy :D
Jim Drew said in 12 words much more truth and essence than dlfrsilver (please, can you have some name what human can remember, so no need to copy/paste it every time :mrgreen: ) in 222 words. There is no sector/track number limit in floppy controller chips. Only limit is that max is 256, since counter is 1 byte. So, even in DD you may have for instance 20 256 byte sectors. What causes problems with some Atari floppies is that FDC used on PC motherboards is slower in getting ready to read data/header from disk than WDC1772. PC FDC chips are based on old Intel controller, about that I have book with detailed data and description. So, if the gaps between previous sector end and header, or between header and data are small, it will miss begin, so can not read sector properly. Furthermore, if first sector is very close to index - again small gap case, it will miss it, and you can not access floppy at all, since that sector is bootsector where all it begins - disk will be not recognized at all. It stays for floppies with 9 sector/track too. Here we had some 8 years ago longer discussion about problems with Fastcopy Pro formatted disks. Could not read them on PC when were formatted with Fast option on. Analysis showed that small gap at start is the problem.

And must say something more - what wanted right after second reply here: both mine FloImg and STrecover use Simon Owen's fdrawcmd - low level internal drive floppy driver for Windows, so if mine was unable to read that 12 s/tr floppy, STrecover is unable too. And it is not because fdrawcmd is bad, but FDC limitations, described above. But duplicators may write floppy in little higher density, about 5-8%, and then no need for very small gaps, so PC can read 12 s/tr in DD.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby dlfrsilver » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:42 am

exxos wrote:Wasn't 12 and 14 sectors needing 12mhz on the 1772 ? I can't see any floppies using 12 sectors , though I have known people hack their machines that way.


Prophecy the viking child ST actually use a Copylock MFM short protection based on 4 double sided 12 sectors tracks.

PC drives, or any 1.44 drive can be stuck in only reading regular formats. Some may support extended sectors like the MPF series, but some drives are really bad and only support stock 720k & 1.44 formats.


Exactly. Out of the regular disk formats, it's quite a problem.

Atarizoll has software which can read ST floppies on the PC, though I don't know what formats it can ultimately read. I tried formatting a 11 sector 82 tracks floppy on my STFM and I can't get it to read on my PC using FLOIMG :shrug:


That's what i was pointing. The best way to image an 11 sector format is to use kryoflux or any other solution with a custom floppy disc controller.

I also used PPERA's own Floimg, and out of the usual formats, the 11 sector format mostly can't be read nor written. I know the fmdrawcmd low level driver, since samdisk's simon owen use it to read CPC,ST,PC floppy disks (as those 3 share the same FDC).

The only way would be to do a readtrack command on each track of the disk, instead of doing sector reading.

Thread went a bit off topic, but if you want discuss with me about floppy controllers, I'm your guy :D


lol :lol:

Jim Drew said in 12 words much more truth and essence than dlfrsilver (please, can you have some name what human can remember, so no need to copy/paste it every time :mrgreen: ) in 222 words.


You think PPERA is better maybe ? :lol:

There is no sector/track number limit in floppy controller chips. Only limit is that max is 256, since counter is 1 byte. So, even in DD you may have for instance 20 256 byte sectors. What causes problems with some Atari floppies is that FDC used on PC motherboards is slower in getting ready to read data/header from disk than WDC1772.


Yes, while being compatible PC, the WD1772 is above the ones used in PCs.

PC FDC chips are based on old Intel controller, about that I have book with detailed data and description. So, if the gaps between previous sector end and header, or between header and data are small, it will miss begin, so can not read sector properly. Furthermore, if first sector is very close to index - again small gap case, it will miss it, and you can not access floppy at all, since that sector is bootsector where all it begins - disk will be not recognized at all. It stays for floppies with 9 sector/track too. Here we had some 8 years ago longer discussion about problems with Fastcopy Pro formatted disks. Could not read them on PC when were formatted with Fast option on. Analysis showed that small gap at start is the problem.


But from the start, it's an hardware limitation, and nothing more. The CPC/ST/PC's FDC are mostly made for reading, more than writing. Writing is their weakness, while you can make them read any size (for instance on CPC, you have the KBI-19, using 19 sectors interleaved, on ST, the same protection is called Starter 70 sectors, for example). So yes, as long as you do some readtrack command, it's fine, when doing sectorial access, it's bad :)

And must say something more - what wanted right after second reply here: both mine FloImg and STrecover use Simon Owen's fdrawcmd - low level internal drive floppy driver for Windows, so if mine was unable to read that 12 s/tr floppy, STrecover is unable too. And it is not because fdrawcmd is bad, but FDC limitations, described above.


I perfectly know fdrawcmd. I use it regularly for the Amstrad CPC. Yes FDC limitations.

But duplicators may write floppy in little higher density, about 5-8%, and then no need for very small gaps, so PC can read 12 s/tr in DD.


Duplicators are not doing sectorial writing, but track writing, any size, any length :) When on PC i know a game using the same protection as prophecy the viking child, based on Copylock MFM short (4 tracks x 12 sectors), it's Stormlord from hewson.

Of course, the PC can read those 12 sectors, but only because they were written by a duplicator machine.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby AtariZoll » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:43 pm

Really should stop with this floppy low level discussion dlfrsilver. You again missed essence: point is not is writing sectorial or whole track at once. Point is in higher density. That was used by ST games too - I know a lot. That's only way to put 12 sectors on floppy and that it will be readable well on all drives. And you can do it with some Atari too, if you want it desparately. 2 ways are possible: 1. use faster clock for FDC chip - for instance 8.5 MHz.
2. slow down floppy drive's rotation speed.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby Robson » Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:31 pm

It's interesting to read even if it's a bit off topic now

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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby cb » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:52 pm

Bottom line: don't image your disks on PC, do it on a real ST using Pasti instead. Much more reliable.
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Re: Help wanted: Imaging a protected disk

Postby dlfrsilver » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:29 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Really should stop with this floppy low level discussion dlfrsilver. You again missed essence: point is not is writing sectorial or whole track at once. Point is in higher density.


Have you ever owned a trace moutain duplication machine ? The answer is NO :contract:

I did. I had a 100 disk charger Trace Mountain Duplication Station. Basically, it uses extra high quality components and a custom floppy drive controller like the one used on kryoflux boards.

A trace duplication machine write what you want it to write, in the respect of the disk you use.

In order for it to write a 12 sectors scheme on a double density disks, it does it with a 2us, either on Atari ST or Amiga. And you have to note also that the FDC present inside the trace mountain allows variable speed writing.

In order words, when you'd need a custom ST to do the same thing with a standard FDC and a standard drive. Industrial machines like this one write a 12 sectors per track scheme exactly like you would write a standard 9 sectors disk format with your regular ST FDC+drive.

If you want to have a better view, use the kryoflux dump of Prophecy the Viking Child with AUFIT, and check visually the tracks. You'll see they are written in a "normal way".

It's just that the Trace Machine FDC allows the operation while with your ST you can't (or you'd need a variable motor controlled drive, and custom clocking of the ST as you know it already).

That was used by ST games too - I know a lot.


Some games are indeed using variable bitcell (ex : Copylock ST), or even Short tracks (the trace machine can write for instance 6000 bytes in a 5000 bytes space. There is indeed a higher density used to achieve that. This is made with a drive which is slowed by 5-10%. But there is no Higher density used to make 12 sectors per track format.)

The amiga uses the same disk kind (double density), and we have some a certain number of games using the Rob Northern Protected Dos (a 12 sector format with gaps).

This format can be successfully written with a kryoflux board and a 1.44mb PC drive, with no need of a higher density.

In the very same vein, i can successfully write back on double density disks the game Prophecy the Viking child for Atari ST the same way.

That's only way to put 12 sectors on floppy and that it will be readable well on all drives. And you can do it with some Atari too, if you want it desparately. 2 ways are possible: 1. use faster clock for FDC chip - for instance 8.5 MHz. 2. slow down floppy drive's rotation speed.


Yes of course :) But since the components used in the ST are not "industrial quality grade" type, it will become unreliable. Standard equipments (Read PC, ST, Amiga) can't achieve the writing quality of a Trace Machine. What you'd get on an ST would be at best an analog copy which will deteriorate with time.
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