List of difficult to copy disks

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Tue May 27, 2014 6:50 pm

Are we talking about Double Density recorded Data on a High Density media or HD Data ????

Ajax allow to read/write HD data and this is quite different than using a different media

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby JimDrew » Tue May 27, 2014 7:41 pm

High density/low density option in the SCP just changes the drive's /HD line. For every 3.5" drive I have tested it makes no difference for low density (non-1.44MB disks with the hole opposite of the write protect). There CAN be difference if the disk you are reading/writing is a high density type, but only a couple of drives seems to matter. For 5.25" drives, it just toggles the 300/360 RPM and timing. This info is not going to help any type of emulation or tool since switching this most often makes the data unusable when its in the wrong mode. I will add the flag though.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby wheeel » Tue May 27, 2014 9:06 pm

This is my rationale. Here is the outcome of an HD disk where the "emulation" thinks it is a double density disk:

1.gif


And here is the outcome when it knows that it is an HD disk:

2.gif


Apart from the odd glitch on track 41 (it seems this is a general bug in the 0.4c software), when Aufit knows the scp file is from an HD disk it is able to correctly decode the data, and otherwise it simply produces garbage --- just like a real FD controller if you cover up the HD hole or put an HD disk in a DD drive (which is effectively what Aufit currently emulates as far as I can see).

So, thanks for adding the flag! :wink:
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Wed May 28, 2014 3:38 pm

I am surprise :)
The internal DPLL in Aufit can decode DD or HD (I have run some test). However as far as I remember in current version HD is not supported.
So if you try to interpret a real HD disk it should not work ????

Yes for track 41 I know the "problem". Aufit interprets the data from a read track command equivalent.
With track 41 the sector ID is ALWAYS interpreted incorrectly because track 41 cause the Sync detector to find a $C2 sync

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby wheeel » Wed May 28, 2014 6:01 pm

DrCoolZic wrote:The internal DPLL in Aufit can decode DD or HD (I have run some test).


Yes, the DPLL works very well :D - even with damaged HD disks. Hopefully with the up-and-coming HD flag in the SCP file, Aufit can automatically switch modes.

DrCoolZic wrote:However as far as I remember in current version HD is not supported. So if you try to interpret a real HD disk it should not work ????


Ummm :oops: ... what can I say? - I'm a programmer and I didn't want to trouble you with unreasonable requests such as supporting HD disks when you're most likely very busy. I hope you don't mind. I'd like to also look into supporting single density disks since I have a stack of those which I am also hoping to image and extract the data from. Your software is by far the best way of doing that. When (if?!) I get it working, and you'd be interested, I can send you the FM decoder so you can integrate it?... :wink:

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu May 29, 2014 7:26 am

I already had requests to provide the source in order to be able to add specific features ... so my idea is to make it public
I even already have a place in github https://github.com/DrCoolzic/Aufit
But I would like to do few things before. So you will have to wait :(

I have been programming for a long long time in C++ but I am new to C# and new to GUI and WPF and therefore I could get some help in these areas :)
I would like to use the Kryoflux C++ lib in Aufit and for that matter I need to interface C++ with C#. I did it for test with my kryoflux reader lib and this is a pain! Are you familiar with Marshaling?

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby Jeff_HxC2001 » Thu May 29, 2014 12:46 pm

wheeel wrote:... I'd like to also look into supporting single density disks since I have a stack of those which I am also hoping to image and extract the data from. ...


FYI This already support the MFM,FM track analysis and data extraction to/from various formats :
http://hxc2001.com/download/floppy_driv ... 2_beta.zip
Sources available on sourceforge if needed.
:D

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby JimDrew » Fri May 30, 2014 4:50 am

Aufit should not need a flag to know about a HD vs DD disk. They are vastly different in timing and easy to determine which is which. You can determine FM vs MFM as well by just looking at the data - FM only uses two different bit cell regions, where MFM uses three. HD disks have the bit cell regions of 2/3/4us and DD disks are 4/6/8us.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby wheeel » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:27 pm

DrCoolZic wrote:I already had requests to provide the source in order to be able to add specific features ... so my idea is to make it public
I even already have a place in github https://github.com/DrCoolzic/Aufit
But I would like to do few things before. So you will have to wait :(

That's great -- look forward to it.

DrCoolZic wrote:I have been programming for a long long time in C++ but I am new to C# and new to GUI and WPF and therefore I could get some help in these areas :)
I would like to use the Kryoflux C++ lib in Aufit and for that matter I need to interface C++ with C#. I did it for test with my kryoflux reader lib and this is a pain! Are you familiar with Marshaling?

Yeah, I'm willing to help out with anything you particularly need. I also have most of my experience in C++, but quite a bit in C# and can certainly can give some pointers regarding interop/marshalling. However, if you have the source code for the Kryoflux library, you may want to consider wrapping the Kryoflux lib in a C++/CLI interface class. Then you can simply reference this library from C# with minimal hassle and still have all the WPF side in C#.

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:46 am

wheeel wrote:Yeah, I'm willing to help out with anything you particularly need. I also have most of my experience in C++, but quite a bit in C# and can certainly can give some pointers regarding interop/marshalling. However, if you have the source code for the Kryoflux library, you may want to consider wrapping the Kryoflux lib in a C++/CLI interface class. Then you can simply reference this library from C# with minimal hassle and still have all the WPF side in C#.

Excellent. I will not be ready until September/October time frame because I will be travelling a lot in the coming three months ...

Meanwhile if you want to test a C++/CLI wraper (I suspect that this is using the so called IJW ) you can get the latest SPS source code released 4.2 at http://www.softpres.org/news:2011-10-15
Unfortunately the source for 5.1 is not yet released so some modifications might be needed later :(
So far the only technique I have experimented was to create a C++ wrapper (not CLI) and perform p-invoke and marshaling in C#. This is because I did not want to learn about C++/CLI but this is obviously the best way to do it.

IFW if you are looking: When will 5.1 source code be released?

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:15 pm

For information new release V1.2 of my document "Atari Floppy Disk Copy Protection". Hopefully contains a lot of information about copy protections used on Atari platform
This is a major rewrite that can be found at viewtopic.php?f=95&t=21952&p=253989#p253989

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:38 am

Stefan jL wrote:I can not make working copies of "Jupiter's Masterdrive" (ubi soft), booting SCP copies only show the text "insert original disk" and the same thing happen when converting the SCP to STX with Aufit and tested in Steem.

http://www.ym2149.com/scp/jupitersmasterdrive.7z

I stefan
Would it be possible for you (or anybody that have this game) to make raw kryoflux files of jupiter master drive.
I need to check few things using my KFanalyze program (viewtopic.php?f=95&t=21709#p196428) that provides information not yet available in Aufit.

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby Brume » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:20 pm

@DrCoolZic

Jupiter's Masterdrive
https://1fichier.com/?930fsrm8lo

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:26 pm

Brume wrote:@DrCoolZic

Jupiter's Masterdrive
https://1fichier.com/?930fsrm8lo

Does not work message identifiant d'emission invalid?
Is it from an original disk?

thanks

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby Brume » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:28 pm

Sorry, I posted the wrong link. Try again, it's corrected now.
Yes, it comes from an original game.

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:32 pm

Thanks Brume got it :)
with all formats super

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:27 pm

DrCoolZic wrote:Thanks guy look like I need to spend more time on this.
I already started to write a program with GUI to analyze these situations ...
Is this documented somewhere or just based on experience?

One last thing and after I shut up. You mention "invalid contains 3 zero".
By itself I think that 3 000 is OK as MFM is (1,3) RLL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length ... 2C3.29_RLL
4 zero is invalid. However in what you show there are invalid sequences of 000

Would be interesting to be able to write these kind of sequences (impossible to write on a real machine) with SCP to analyze the result with real Atari. Any easy way to enter sequences to write?
I have started to look at IPF code and it is interesting. At first glance the differences I see with my code is the delayed things and the overlapping A1 mark inside C2.


Just for information I have fully analyzed the problem I have in current Aufit with Jupiter Master drive. Analysis has been done at the transition level. :(

I thought that originally the problem was caused by having a sync mark 4489 overlapping the sync mark 5224 and not decoded as C2 0B
In fact this is not the case in fact the second sync mark is separated from the first one by one transition. So this was just a bug in my DSR :(

Full explanation and details in my new version of prot document viewtopic.php?f=95&t=21952#p261784

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby Brume » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:35 pm

Does it mean a new version of Aufit is in the pipeline?

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:15 pm

I have been doing a lot of analysis around protections to get better understanding. For that matter I have spend lot of time:
- imaging more disks
- analyzing more disks
- documenting protection and game analysis
...
viewtopic.php?f=102&t=25991&p=261786#p261786


I am also trying to help on testing new CosmosEx device and new PPDriver
New doc viewtopic.php?f=103&t=26999&p=261779#p261779
and a lots of tests ...

I have also just complete release of BIG 2 GEM library into public domain
This has been a lot of work. All the doc in French has been translated in English and placed into the BIG sources in Doxygen format...
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=27060&p=261803#p261803
Web http://info-coach.fr/atari/software/st-projects/big.php
Doc http://info-coach.fr/atari/software/st- ... index.html
Public repository https://github.com/DrCoolzic/BIG2


so I did not have too much time to modify code other than some experiments on new Aufit II :)
The plan is to be able to read most of the formats including IPF, CTR and no protected format ... and add more output formats
Do not want to enter into details but I probably I need to rearchitect Aufit because of tough interaction between C++ / C# / WPF (marshaling and co)

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby JimDrew » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:41 pm

If we could get Jookie to spool .scp image data out the floppy interface, then that would work for loading all disks, copy protected or not. Of course, if I could find some free time I could finish the file handler for the SD card support that SCP has and turn it into a floppy drive emulator and then you could use SCP in place of a drive.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby kodak80 » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:33 pm

JimDrew wrote:If we could get Jookie to spool .scp image data out the floppy interface, then that would work for loading all disks, copy protected or not. Of course, if I could find some free time I could finish the file handler for the SD card support that SCP has and turn it into a floppy drive emulator and then you could use SCP in place of a drive.


Getting the SCP board emulating from the SD card would be my preference as I now have 2 of these.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby JimDrew » Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:14 am

I am working on it as I get free time. I am using the same control method as Jeff used for HxC. So, you will be able to use any of the HxC software to access files and such from a real ST, Amiga, etc. using the SCP board.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby Brume » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:16 pm

Have a big trouble with IK+ and SCP.
I tried to re-write the SCP file given by greatguy here (it comes from the Lightforce disks, but I think it's identical to the original disk).

Since the SCP provided by greatguy works fine if it's converted with Aufit into STX format, I'm unable to write it back to a blank floppy. See below for the screenshots. The first picture displays the faulty disk, written by SCP. The second one displays the orignal SCP sent by Greatguy.

Please note I've tried with several floppies, and the same issue repeats. A lot of tracks are damaged and the game can't be copied properly. I suspected my drive may be damaged, so I tried to write back many other games (Jupiter Masterdrive, Jim Power, etc.): they work very fine and Aufit display a clean picture of the disk.

Greatguy used splice/4 rev mode to create the SCP from IK+, so the "write-back" operation really should work (unless it requires "5" rev, but I really doubt of that).

Any help is welcome. Thanks in advance.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby JimDrew » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:28 pm

I will look at disk 5's image.

When writing back an image that has multi-revolutions you need to enable the override and set the mode to INDEX. This is why I don't dump anything with multiple revolutions myself.

By the way, you might want to rename your thread "My wish list of KF or SPC images disks" to "My wish list of KF or SCP images disks". You have "SCP" as "SPC".
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:42 pm

JimDrew wrote:I will look at disk 5's image.
When writing back an image that has multi-revolutions you need to enable the override and set the mode to INDEX. This is why I don't dump anything with multiple revolutions myself.

Can you elaborate? I am still unclear about rewriting disks with SCP I thought you did not have to do anything?

Side question: when just writing an SCP image does the mode Index change something in the image?


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