MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

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Eero Tamminen
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MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:50 pm

I checked the provided EmuTOS tos.img file on MiST "Getting Started" wiki page:
https://code.google.com/p/mist-board/wi ... ingStarted
https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-boar ... ingStarted

And it's obsolete, version 0.9.0 from early 2013. Could it be updated to just released EmuTOS v0.9.5 version?

Besides bug fixes, the main changes since 0.9.0, that are relevant for MiST / ST emulation, are:
- EmuDesk: Support for renaming folders
- EmuDesk: Added feature to display text files
- EmuDesk: allow desktop "rubber-banding" in all directions
- EmuDesk: Added feature to move files/folders with Control key
- EmuDesk: Changed icon display in desktop windows to eliminate horizontal scrolling
- EmuDesk: Always display file/folder countdown when copying/deleting
- EmuDesk: Allow desktop copy/delete operations to be interrupted by UNDO key
- EmuDesk: The total number of items in all open windows is no longer limited to 400
- AES: Improved File Selector (now it's similar to normal TOS)
- BIOS: add alt-arrow support (mouse actions via keyboard)
- BIOS: allow EmuTOS to recover from program exceptions in user programs
- XBIOS: DMA sound functions added
- New EmuCON2 console, with TAB completion
- Added all the line-A functions. Those are needed by many freeware & shareware programs / games
- Improved determination of disk capacity & blocksize
- Improved detection of FAT12 / FAT16 / FAT32 partitions
- Improved media change detection
- Speed up a few VDI functions
- Improved file system performance
- Improved desktop file copy performance
- Compiled with -O2 instead of -Os for better performance
- Reduced ROM space usage
- Reduced RAM usage

I.e. new version has much nicer desktop (+ builtin console), it's more compatible and faster.

IMHO it would be also good idea to add "get latest" link after the tos.img link, pointing to:
http://emutos.sourceforge.net/en/download.html

EDIT: wiki seems to be now in github, but EmuTOS image is still the same old 2013 one. Added link to new page too.
Last edited by Eero Tamminen on Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:59 pm

Btw. I think EmuTOS is the only (legally) freely distributable OS version, not just for Atari ST, but also for Amiga...

Some discussion on the Amiga version:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=64812
http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=23585

Has anybody tested how well the EmuTOS Amiga version works as "kickstart" image with MiST Amiga core?

(According to above eab thread, EmuTOS Amiga version works on some real Amiga HW and minimeg, so it could very well work also with MiST Amiga core.)

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby xc8 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:26 pm

the only usable emuTOS, for me, with MiST is the 0.9.3 as there is support for HDD images, later versions >= 0.9.4 support only FDD on MiST...

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby farvardin » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:10 pm

amazing, I didn't know it was possible to run emuTOS on amiga...
I've tried it on my MiST, it can boot. But after that, I can move the mouse, but if I click in the menu, it's not working.
In an emulator (uae), emuTOS is working, and I can click. However, I can't insert any disk in it. The emutos-kickdisk.adf is not recognised. Even in amiga OS, I can't open the disk. In emutos, I can't open any other disk either.

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby farvardin » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:31 pm

just to clarify, and save some people's time, emutos512 is only for TT and Falcon, so it's not working on the MiST. emutos256 is for STE, and emutos192 for STF. I tried it on a few games and it seems to work well so far (probably some games are incompatible with it?)

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:39 pm

Whether MiST supports 512k TOS versions is MiST compatibility issue, not EmuTOS one.

-> 512k version of EmuTOS isn't just for the TT/Falcon or for 030, it supports any Atari HW version, it just has extra features. However, most of those extra features aren't useful on ST/STE, and the larger size (+ related larger memory consumption) makes it less compatible with ST/STE software.

EmuTOS is pretty compatible nowadays. For ST/STE programs, the main issues are:
- Some floppy-only games overwrite TOS memory (which obviously craps things out)
- Some STOS games/apps use non-documented & TOS version specific ways to get joystick/keyboard input

I.e. the programs themselves are buggy. Use a version of the program that is fixed to work on HD and with multiple TOS versions instead.

EmuTOS itself has also few real compatibility issues, but they're pretty corner-case. Known ones are listed here:
http://sourceforge.net/p/emutos/code/ci ... c/bugs.txt

Compatibility list for non-commercial SW is maintained in Hatari repository:
http://hg.tuxfamily.org/mercurialroot/h ... emutos.txt

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:47 pm

xc8 wrote:the only usable emuTOS, for me, with MiST is the 0.9.3 as there is support for HDD images, later versions >= 0.9.4 support only FDD on MiST...


Have you tried v0.9.5? If that has also a problem, it's likely that the problem is on MiST side. EmuTOS supports things that old ST/STE TOS versions don't (e.g. IDE), so they don't necessarily trigger bugs in MiST, that EmuTOS may trigger.

EmuTOS is nice because it doesn't need separate HD driver for accessing hard disks like original TOS versions did. The disk (image) just needs to have DOS partition table, or a single (FAT16) partition without partition table.

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby xc8 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:28 pm

Eero Tamminen wrote:Have you tried v0.9.5? If that has also a problem, it's likely that the problem is on MiST side. EmuTOS supports things that old ST/STE TOS versions don't (e.g. IDE), so they don't necessarily trigger bugs in MiST, that EmuTOS may trigger.


yes, only the FDDs are visible under 0.9.5

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:25 pm

Latest EmuTOS snapshot has added following on top of v0.9.5:
- Better compatibility with old floppy-only games, demos etc which overwrite TOS memory areas
- Improved RAM version of EmuTOS, so that one can easily run it & verify things on real devices
- Pretty full TT support (added support for 256-color mode and extra HW)
- Fixes to many issues in the known issues list
- Minor optimizations

It should now be compatible to about any SW that MiST itself is compatible with. For MiST, it's recommended to use HD adapted & TOS version fixed versions of games, and those will work also with EmuTOS.

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby BlankVector » Sun May 08, 2016 6:49 am

xc8 wrote:the only usable emuTOS, for me, with MiST is the 0.9.3 as there is support for HDD images, later versions >= 0.9.4 support only FDD on MiST...

Really? Each new release of EmuTOS is better than the previous one, there are no known regressions. For sure, EmuTOS still works fine with HDD images on emulators, as well as with real ACSI and IDE disks on real Atari hardware. There must be some issues with MiST hardware itself.

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby xc8 » Fri May 13, 2016 2:27 pm

BlankVector wrote:
xc8 wrote:the only usable emuTOS, for me, with MiST is the 0.9.3 as there is support for HDD images, later versions >= 0.9.4 support only FDD on MiST...

Really? Each new release of EmuTOS is better than the previous one, there are no known regressions. For sure, EmuTOS still works fine with HDD images on emulators, as well as with real ACSI and IDE disks on real Atari hardware. There must be some issues with MiST hardware itself.


Till knows better

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Fri May 13, 2016 9:00 pm

There was just some discussion on emutos-devel about ACSI issue that could affect also MiST, which may have started after v0.9.3. It's possible that EmuTOS floppy code is interfering with ACSI code.

If you boot MiNT without floppies, does harddisk work with newer EmuTOS version?

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun May 15, 2016 9:04 pm

This EmuTOS git snapshot:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/emutos ... /20160515/

Will hopefully fix the MiST ACSI HD problem (fix is handling of IRQs when two floppy drives are attached).

Could somebody test it?

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby xc8 » Sun May 22, 2016 1:25 pm

MiST does not even boot anymore with EmuTOS... vertical lines on screen and system frozen.

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun May 22, 2016 3:12 pm

Is this with both 192k and 512k ROM versions?

(Former is built with -Os and latter with -O2, so there could be differences if issue is timing related. Latter also probes for more HW, which doesn't exist in MiST.)

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby joska » Sun May 22, 2016 4:52 pm

xc8 wrote:MiST does not even boot anymore with EmuTOS... vertical lines on screen and system frozen.


Latest EmuTOS is working very well on real ST's here. Tested (from flash-ROM) on 4Mb STM, 4+8Mb Mega ST (with MonSTer) and 4+8Mb STE (MonSTer). If MIST is supposed to implement an ST/STE, I suggest the author of the ST core does some debugging with EmuTOS.
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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby BlankVector » Sun May 22, 2016 6:44 pm

Someone reported there that EmuTOS 0.9.6 works perfectly on the MiST board.

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby xc8 » Mon May 23, 2016 12:04 am

BlankVector wrote:Someone reported there that EmuTOS 0.9.6 works perfectly on the MiST board.


hm.. seems something broke on the latest core/firmware :?

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Fri May 27, 2016 12:13 pm

I also didn't have any luck with emutos 0.9.5 nor 0.9.6 ... i will have to debug that ...
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Fri May 27, 2016 12:18 pm

They do boot with core_150708_r1202.rbf and don't with core_151122.rbf

Looks like I broke something in-between those versions.

Edit: Uh ... between those two versions is a "merge tg68k with Minimig" commit. Major CPU changes in an effort to join the different CPU branches again ...
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:34 am

I fixed the EmuTOS problem (it was some Amiga driven change in the CPU which caused the trouble). And i also removed the local EmuTOS copy from the repository and instead now link to the EmuTOS ZIP at Sourceforge.
MIST board, FPGA based Atari STE and more: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby BlankVector » Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:57 am

Excellent :D

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:08 pm

One of the nicer things with newer EmuTOS versions is that one doesn't anymore need to fiddle with Atari partitioning SW.

EmuTOS supports:
* disks with DOS partition table, and
* disks that have only single partition without any partition table (typical situation for memory cards)

Without any additional driver SW being needed.

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:25 am

MasterOfGizmo wrote:I fixed the EmuTOS problem (it was some Amiga driven change in the CPU which caused the trouble). And i also removed the local EmuTOS copy from the repository and instead now link to the EmuTOS ZIP at Sourceforge.


This: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-boar ... ingStarted

Still says "(some recent cores fail with EmuTOS, please use standard TOS instead until this is fixed)".
Is there still some bug in MiST that prevents it working with newer EmuTOS versions?

FYI: Latest EmuTOS version is v0.9.7, which is pretty compatible with everything, both SW and HW. Exceptions are listed here:
- https://github.com/emutos/emutos/blob/m ... atible.txt
- https://github.com/emutos/emutos/blob/m ... c/bugs.txt

Btw. I also noticed that this:
https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-boar ... assStorage

Doesn't mention that with EmuTOS one doesn't need to mess with HD drivers as EmuTOS supports HDs out of the box.

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Re: MiST wiki EmuTOS image version update?

Postby BlankVector » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:55 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:This: https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-boar ... ingStarted

Still says "(some recent cores fail with EmuTOS, please use standard TOS instead until this is fixed)".
Is there still some bug in MiST that prevents it working with newer EmuTOS versions?

Thanks to have spotted that, Eero.
I see that the above wiki page is modifiable by any GitHub user. Eero, can you please update that page with more recent and accurate information about EmuTOS, if MiST people are OK for that?

EmuTOS makes big efforts to stay compatible with real Atari hardware, so it is a good testcase for hardware developers. As far as I understand, the MiST firmware bug has been fixed last year. So everything is supposed to work fine now, it is worth to fix wiki pages to avoid spreading obsolete information.

EmuTOS people are happy to see EmuTOS working well on MiST :)

farvardin wrote:In an emulator (uae), emuTOS is working, and I can click. However, I can't insert any disk in it. The emutos-kickdisk.adf is not recognised. Even in amiga OS, I can't open the disk. In emutos, I can't open any other disk either.

(sorry for this late answer about EmuTOS for Amiga)

emutos-kickdisk.adf is for Amiga 1000 only. That ancient Amiga machine had only a minimal ROM stub, then loaded the real Kickstart ROM from floppy. That emutos-kickdisk.adf can be booted on Amiga 1000 instead of Kickstart floppy, but can't be used anywhere else. This is explained in the EmuTOS readme.

With previous EmuTOS versions up to 0.9.7, it was necessary to rebuild EmuTOS yourself to enable floppy routines (due to AROS license incompatibility with GPL). Now floppy routines have been completely rewritten, floppy support (read only) is enabled in official binaries. You can try latest EmuTOS snapshot, if you like. Look into emutos-amiga-rom-*.zip
Note that EmuTOS for Amiga can only read ST floppies, not Amiga ones!

And for completeness, recent EmuTOS snapshots also contain an emutos-amiga-floppy-*.zip archive. It is a special EmuTOS version running in RAM instead of ROM. So it can easily be tested on any Amiga. But of course, it wastes RAM.

Theoretically, all that stuff should work perfectly on MiST.


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