15 kHz Scart RGB

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15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby hubersn » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:47 pm

First of all - I own the MiST for a few weeks now, and it is a lot of fun. I am mainly enjoying the Schneider CPC and the C64 core and am hoping for a more fully-featured Archimedes core in the future. So thanks to all people involved, especially Till of course. It is a great project.

Despite all the fun, there is one thing that is really frustrating - the "incompatible screen" issue. I have achieved good results with my Sanyo Z3 projector, which accepts 15kHz and traditional VGA signals both on the VGA input. The NEC MultiSync 3D also syncs fine to every signal under the sun, but is on its last legs, and a 13" screen is not really the experience I am after. The 19" Nokia CRT also works fine, but is even heavier than it looks (Trinitron).

The two screens I would really like to use is a Toshiba 40" LCD and an LG 22" LCD. Both have VGA and HDMI inputs, as well as RGB Scart. So I experimented a lot, but nothing really worked. Does anyone have an idiot proof guide to connect the MiST to an RGB Scart TV (obviously only for cores supporting scandoubler disabling)? I tried a ready-made cable as well as a VGA-BNC cable connected to a Cinch-Scart adapter. Is the sync output from the MiST compatible with the CSync expected by a typical Scart RGB input? Has anyone tried something based on e.g. the AD724 to convert RGB to S-Video and Composite? Or an RGB-Scart to HDMI converter?

My ultimate target is to have a range of connection options available to achieve compatibility with most screens - one of the intended use cases for the MiST is to take it with me when visiting old friends who played with me in the old days on those 8bit machines, and carrying a big CRT with me was not part of the plan.

Hoping for suggestions
hubersn

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby exxos » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:04 am

This thread mentions 15khz problems if that helps.. http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=28485
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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby Newsdee » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:45 am

There's a page in the wiki going over several options for upscaling VGA (either into HDMI or VGA fixing the "vertical scaling" ssues). For some cores a cheap and small VGA2HDMI box is enough, others need something a bit more powerful.

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby hubersn » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:18 pm

Thanks for the responses so far. I have read everything that Google threw at me and investigated various VGA-to-HDMI solutions and was either put off because of price or because of performance.

So I will try to refocus my question according to the subject. What I really want is to connect the MiST to Scart-equipped TVs and monitors. At first, I thought that this should be easy - just use a correctly wired VGA-Scart cable and configure the MiST for 15 kHz operation (i.e. disabling the scandoubler and using cores that support 15 kHz operation). I tried many options, but failed. I know that the MiST is correctly configured because one of my LCD monitors tells me that the signal is 15 kHz/50 Hz.

So the real questions are - has someone successfully connected the MiST with a Scart RGB input? What is the correct cable wiring? Does the sync signal output need special care - what is the MiST's sync output if the scandoubler is disabled - still hsync/vsync or csync? Is the sync polarity and level good for Scart RGB?

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:39 pm

Yes, I am using this on my regular scart tv. The cable type is known as 'minimig scart cable'.

In 15khz mode a csync signal is output on the vgas hsync output and the vsync outputs a constant high which is used for an rgb switch signal on scart.

I should write a wiki page about the scart cable.

This page may help:
http://home.kpn.nl/bderogee1980/project ... cable.html
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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby hubersn » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:02 pm

Thank you Till for the definitive answer.

So now I just have to find out why I am getting different shades of black instead of a picture. Tried the Amiga and Coleco core. Maybe it is time to reactivate the old CRT TVs.

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby DrChaos » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:39 am

I was also using SCART cable, which I soldered. However, my TV only synced the NTSC C64 core, although it is possible that that changed with the new core which I have not tried yet. Anyway, my results were better using a VGA2HDMI Adpater. However, a cheap TV-Set or a CRT is a better option, these consoles were not build for these huge screens. It is usable with Scanlines, but still the Image Optimisation of modern TVs does often not meet the needs of old school gamers.

I was even disappointed by the framemeister, which I will sell now...

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby Newsdee » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:12 am

What's wrong with the Framemeister? It works fine for me although it needs an reboot when switching some modes...

Also, some TVs have an option to switch off post-processing ("game mode" or something like that) which should help.

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:20 am

hubersn wrote:So now I just have to find out why I am getting different shades of black instead of a picture. Tried the Amiga and Coleco core. Maybe it is time to reactivate the old CRT TVs.


Did you ever use a real Amiga on the Scart input of your TV? The TV signals those machine generated back in the days also weren't true TV signals as they e.g. weren't interlaced. Old analog TVs didn't really care about these things, they just fed any signal through their analog circuitry.

Modern LCDs are much more picky with respect to this as there are complete picture processing units inside nowadays which often expect signals very close to the TV standards.
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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby DrChaos » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:48 am

Newsdee wrote:What's wrong with the Framemeister? It works fine for me although it needs an reboot when switching some modes...

Also, some TVs have an option to switch off post-processing ("game mode" or something like that) which should help.


Nothing, besides that I don't like the picture (especially when considereing the price). I guess I could improve it with tweaking, but I was asking my selft how many old CRT's I can buy for a frammeister :) Having another device between the framemeister and the LCD is a bit annoying for me, too.

Regarding the post-processing, well, still it's not the same...

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:43 pm

A small doc regarding the required SCART cable:

https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-boar ... ScartCable

Edit: This now explains how to "convert" a cheap SCART/VGA cable from Ebay.
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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby DrChaos » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:04 pm

I got a 404 on the Mist Github pages...

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby MasterOfGizmo » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:37 pm

DrChaos wrote:I got a 404 on the Mist Github pages...


Fixed. The spam detection at github ate the project ...
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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby hubersn » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:28 pm

MasterOfGizmo wrote:Did you ever use a real Amiga on the Scart input of your TV? The TV signals those machine generated back in the days also weren't true TV signals as they e.g. weren't interlaced. Old analog TVs didn't really care about these things, they just fed any signal through their analog circuitry.


First of all, thank you very much for the doc you created. Very helpful. I intend to convert a Scart cable "real soon now".

I never owned an Amiga, and therefore never connected one to a TV. The last experiment was connecting an Archimedes 3000 to a 27" Sony Trinitron CRT a few years ago, which worked fine. Before, I did the same with a Schneider CPC 464.

I will report the outcome of my MiST experiments asap - I have two CRTs and three LCDs with (in theory) RGB capable Scart.

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby DrOG » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:51 pm

Hi all!

I brush up this topic because I found something interesting during usage of minimig vga2scart cable:

After powering up the MIST in 'scandoubler_disabled=1' mode, the picture changes it's brightness during the first seconds, it's brighter in the beginning, after that it's altering between light and dark a few times, and later it stays dark:

Image

Image

The process lasts about a minute. Some cores are more problematic in this aspect than others, i.e. the AGA minimig and the Atari ST cores, but sometimes the others show the same phenomenon also. Look at the above pictures, an you will see the difference.

The second issue is that after changing the core sometimes the TV finds very slow the appropriate standard (PAL or NTSC).

These problems are persisting from the beginning, but I didn't care about them until I read two articles about sync signals, from the same author:

https://ianstedman.wordpress.com/2016/0 ... o-engines/
http://www.ianstedman.co.uk/Amiga/amiga ... scart.html

The sync signals of VGA are TTL levels (about 5V), the SCART standard is 1V:
http://microvga.com/faq/electrical/what ... age-levels
http://martin.hinner.info/vga/scart.html
The Red, Green and Blue levels are in both cases 0.7V.

So my first question is: what is the voltage level of MIST's CSYNC signal in 15kHz mode on the VGA connector's HSYNC pin? Shall we worry about it and solder a 330 Ohm resistor to the SCART plug's 20. pin, or it is already limited to the standard level?

The second question: I found 2 old CRT TV's in my neighborhood, which are incompatible with the minimig vga2scart cable. The Philips doesn't show anything, but the flat screen Samsung, manufactured in 2004, has a very-very dark picture, visible only if the room is total darkened. If I would connect +12V to SCART pin 8., would the picture be better?

Thanks all answers in advance: Gábor

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby DrChaos » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:06 am

Hi Gábor,

not sure if this is a question for you, but I assume the Philips has Scart-Composite only, so no RGB.

Unfortunately I can't help with the other questions.

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby RobertK » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:36 pm

Pin 8 on newer TVs is for selecting 4:3 mode (12V = 4:3; 0V = 16:9). I think you meant Pin 16 (RGB Select). But MIST should already be activating this pin correctly, otherwise it wouldn't work on any RGB-capable SCART TV.

As DrChaos mentioned already, your old Philips TV might not be capable of RGB.

BTW, since when did the average European TV-set have an RGB-capable SCART plug? Early 1990s? Or later?

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby bernouilli » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:41 pm

On some TVs with multiple SCART, only one or two SCART connector support RGB, the others support only video composite. And only a few TV do support s-video through SCART. But I don't know if there are TV that don't support RGB at all.
But when the SCART isn't connected to support RGB, you don't get any image at all.

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby squid4 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:59 pm

There were lots of CRT TVs that didn't support RGB through SCART.

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby DrOG » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:14 am

Hi Guys!

Thanks to everyone who tried to help me, I appreciate that!

@DrChaos:
The Philips CRT I tried earlier has 2 SCART connectors, one of them should be RGB-compatible, and tried both of them without success.

@RobertK:
I meant Pin 8, Pin 16 is wired correctly considering the minimig-VGA2SCART schematic. Pin 8 is unused now, didn't try to connect it so far.

@bernouilli & squid4:
The SCART/Euro-AV/Peritel connector was designed it the 1970's, so it's a quite old standard. In the eastern bloc (I live in Hungary), many TV brands (i.e. Videoton) used non-standard video connectors (like this 6-pin socket: http://elektrotechnika.uw.hu/kep/6pol_DIN.jpg ). These carried only composite video and (mono) audio. After tearing down the Iron Curtain (late 1980's, early 1990's) we had - mostly import - SCART TV's, but as far I know, these had already RGB-compatible connectors.

Made some further investigations:

1. Restored my SCART cable to it's original condition, following Sorgelig's advice. (Formerly tried to fix the PC Engine's corrupted picture using resistors on the Sync pin of SCART connector, which wasn't a clever attempt. Further details in the PCE topic).

2. Connected an old Yamada DVX-6700 standalone DVD Player to my Samsung CRT (model CZ-21N112T), using a standard, full wired SCART cable just to verify if the TV is operational or not. There was an acceptable picture.

Image

3. Switched the DVD player's output from AV to RGB, which resulted slightly better picture quality, so I suppose the TV's SCART input is RGB compatible (it has only one SCART socket).

Image

4. Connected the MIST using the restored (directly wired) minimig-VGA2SCART cable, the result was the same as earlyer, a barely visible, very dark picture.

Image

5. Tried the PCE core, which resulted a very bright, near white, but magenta tinted picture, without any detail.

Image

6. Undusted my good old Philips CM8833 monitor, and compared it's picture to the TV using the c64 and the PCE core, connected with the same standard VGA2SCART cable. In both cases the result was very good, altough the screen of PCE core Was centered to the left (I could easily correct it using the monitor's 'horizontal position' knob).

Image

Image

My conclusions:
1. The TV is operational, and it has a working and RGB compatible scart socket.
2. The c64 and the PCE core's video output is somehow different (we already knew that).
3. Old CRT monitors are less picky in aspect of video signals than newer CRT TVs (not a big suprise).

My theory is that some of these old CRTs need to connect a composite (or at least Intensity/Luminance/Monochrome/Y) signal to SCART pin 20 to work properly, 'stripped', pure sync signal is not enough.

I can not confirm it now, but acquisition of an Enterprise 128 is a work-in-prorgress for me, after it arrives I will test it in the above aspect too. It's an interesting machine, has TTL level syncs (separated HSYNC, VSYNC and CSYNC), but linear, non-digital, near-TTL (4V) RGB signals - in this case I MUST use appropriate resistors), and a monochrome composite output on the same edge connector.
See the pinouts here (the video connector is at the bottom of the page) : http://enterprise.iko.hu/pinouts.htm

Abother interesting article about sync signals:

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/com ... osite-sync

Nice weekend to all: Gábor
Last edited by DrOG on Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby Higgy » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:45 am

Good investigations/testing.

I was using a Commodore 1084S before it died. That did not accept CSYNC from consoles etc so I had built a Sync stripper box with MALE-FEMALE SCART CONNECTORS. I could then run all my hardware through the 1084S. - I am now back using my 14" CRT's.

There is a circuit here which combines H & V Sync. I have the components but I have not yet built it. Could be integrated into the MiST SCART lead? :

http://www.nexusuk.org/projects/vga2scart/circuit

On my Panasonic 14" CRT (RGB SCART) PC Engine & Amstrad Core's look as if there are Sync issues. Although I have not spent a long time with these so it might be my config.

Regarding running real hardware on my 14" CRT, PC Engine requires a RGB Amp circuit, normal RGB picture is too dark. Amstrad 464/6128 connect fine. SNES/Megadrive need capacitors on the Colour Signals. For example I bought a SNES-RGB lead, it did not have the capacitors originally. I would get a picture for 1sec and then it would fade to black. Add the capacitors and the picture is perfect.

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby DrOG » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:55 pm

The PCE core has issues on several screens, but some TVs/monitors are not so sensitive and it works with them properly. (Just now tried my mother's old Panasonic TX-28CK1P TV, and the picture is acceptable, but trunctated on the left side). The Amstrad core's picture is running vertically on it. I don't have any original hardware except C64+1541 unfortunately.

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby DrOG » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:09 am

Good news everyone! (Futurama forever ;-) )

I found the solution to my problem: modified a standard minimig VGA2SCART cable as follows: cutted the female end of a USB extension cord, then soldered the red wire (+5V) to the SCART plug's pin 8 (AV mode switching), the black wire (GND) to SCART pin 14 (data ground). Plugged the other (male) end to a phone charger, the TV accepts the MIST's signal, and there's a perfect picture:

Image

I didn't have 12V power supply near at hand (5V should result 16:9 AR picture), but as you see, the picture is correctly displayed in 4:3. Another advantage of using USB as power supply is the possibility to feed it directly from one of the MIST's USB sockets (using VGA pin 9 for the purpose would be even comfortable, but it's grounded as I see on the schematics).

So now I have an 'improved compatibility' cable, on the one end a SCART plug, on the other a VGA, a stereo 3.5 jack and a USB connector. This looks odd, but works!

If your TV set shows the same behaviour (no picture despite using a correctly and fully wired minimig VGA2SCART cable), it worth to try modding it as above in my opinion.

Higgy wrote:...There is a circuit here which combines H & V Sync. I have the components but I have not yet built it. Could be integrated into the MiST SCART lead? :
http://www.nexusuk.org/projects/vga2scart/circuit


I don't think it would work. Tried a similar, simple electronic some years ago, but it's not a 'standalone' solution: on the orher hand it needs a program running on the PC to work properly. Look at the 'notes' on the same webpage:

http://www.nexusuk.org/projects/vga2scart/

In a nutshell: the above circuit combines the horizontal and vertical syncs, and that's OK, but both sync signals should have negative polarity (this is not default), and you need a 15kHz sync for interlaced TVs instead of 31kHz VGA standard.

There's a more complex solution on the site below:

http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2tv/circuit.html

(I didn't test it myself, but looks promising.)

Higgy wrote:On my Panasonic 14" CRT (RGB SCART) PC Engine & Amstrad Core's look as if there are Sync issues. Although I have not spent a long time with these so it might be my config....


I tested all the 15kHz compatible cores, most of them works perfectly.

But there are some exceptions, the NES, the Genesis and the PCE cores are centered badly and trunctated on the left:

Image

Image

Image

The Amstrad's picture is scrolling vertically (photo taken from my mother's Panasonic TV, but it's the same on my Samsung CRT):

Image

And final, there are 4 cores, which picture is somehow noisy on my CRT, using the modified cable: The C64 (tried PAL and NTSC with same result), the C16/Plus4, the Sam Coupe and the ZX Spectrum:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

These cores work properly on the Panasonic CRT, using an unmodified cable:

Image

Image

Image

Image

I saw something similar (noise on the screen) earlier on my brother's Samsung LE40C5000, tried only the C64 core, using a standard (unmodified) cable. This weekend I'll test on his TV the other affected cores also, and take some photos.

Did someone else experienced the same?

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby DrOG » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:08 am

Hi everyone!

I made some further experiments, the subject was this time my brother's Samsung LE40D503 LCD TV.

I found the same cores 'noisy' which are problematic on my above mentioned Samsung CRT also:

The C64 (PAL&NTSC):

Image

Image

The C16/Plus4:

Image

The Sam Coupe:

Image

And the ZX Spectrum:

Image

Other cores worked well (tested randomly the VIC20, Vektor-06C and Amiga cores):

Image

Image

Image

It did not matter if I used the original or the modified VGA2SCART cable, the picture quality was the same. The only difference was that powering the modified cable the TV switched automatically to SCART input, and displayed 16:9 AR picture, as expected (I was able to set the aspect ratio manually to the correct 4:3 value using the remote controller's 'P.SIZE' button).

I have two conclusions so far:
1. The 'noise' over VGA2SCART cable affects mostly Samsung TVs (tried Philips, Panasonic, LG and Daewoo brands until now, they did not show this problem).
2. Not all Samsung models are affected (i.e. my own LE40B650 is not problematic).
3. As I see mambrino reported in the YPbPr topic he had issues with the 576p signal of C64 and Spectrum cores viewtopic.php?f=101&t=31006&p=313343#p313343 , so maybe these cores are somehow different from the others which does not show the above descripted phenomenon.

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Re: 15 kHz Scart RGB

Postby DrOG » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:28 am

Hi everyone! Again me.

I tested the problematic cores on an LG 26CS460, and I saw ghosting!
There's a phantom view on the left side of the original picture, which is noticeable especially over light background.
Other cores do not show this pehomenon.

Here are some photos (the C64, C16 and Spectrum cores in order, and final the Atari ST as reference):

Image

Image

Image

Image

I think there's definitely something wrong with these cores in 15kHz mode, and the final result depends mainly on the screen: sometimes there's no visible difference among the problematic and non-problematic cores, some displays show ghosting, some others more or less noise, and final, in the worst case, there's no picture at all (?).


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