MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Area for discussing ST(E) clones

Moderators: Mug UK, Zorro 2, Greenious, spiny, Moderator Team

goran
Atariator
Atariator
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:17 pm

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby goran » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:09 pm

Newsdee wrote:These cheaper adapters will not convert 50hz to 60hz, and not all displays accept 50hz over HDMI. I've upgraded a small LCD TV after the old one died, and the new one works with 50hz fortunately.

Try using a 60hz core first to check everything is setup right.


Yeah, I tried 60Hz cores and they work trough adapter. Basically, all video modes that my monitor accepts on VGA work with adapter on HDMI. No additional (scandoubler disabled, PAL, 15kHz, 50Hz) modes work. I already returned the adapter. My current monitor, Samsung Syncmaster 192v works with almost all scandoubled cores, so far I found thay only Speccy core with 128k/Pentagon timings doesn't work. Sony Multiscan 300SF CRT that I had displayed all cores with no problem but it was too big.

Still searching for cheap&good option. :)

Best regards,
Goran

User avatar
Newsdee
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:40 am

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Newsdee » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:47 pm

Scandouble-disabled is 15khz (vertical frequency) and PAL is 50hz (horizontal frequency). It looks like your monitor doesn't support 50hz. Unfortunately converting 50hz to 60hz is the hardest (and more expensive) as it requires extra RAM in the converter to have a framebuffer. You could try a GBS8200 board, but even that has trouble with 50hz in some cores.

goran
Atariator
Atariator
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:17 pm

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby goran » Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:12 pm

Actually, scandoubled PAL is working, that's not the problem. I just re-checked with C64 core in PAL mode (51Hz), SamCoupe core (50Hz) and with Spectrum in Spectrum mode (50Hz) and they are all displayed correctly with vertical freq 30-32kHz.

Sorgelig
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:51 am
Location: Russia/Taiwan

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:33 pm

I suggest to use LKV362A rather than buggy GBS8200. Prices are similar. LKV362A doing very good 50/60 up/down conversions, HDMI output with integrated audio. So, for 15KHz modes (including those non-standard 320lines per field, 48Hz mode) LKV362A is the best scaler IMHO.

ericgus
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:53 am
Location: Boston MA - USA

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby ericgus » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:16 am

Sorgelig wrote:I suggest to use LKV362A rather than buggy GBS8200. Prices are similar. LKV362A doing very good 50/60 up/down conversions, HDMI output with integrated audio. So, for 15KHz modes (including those non-standard 320lines per field, 48Hz mode) LKV362A is the best scaler IMHO.


Do you need a scart cable for the LK362A or can skit it and go from the MiST VGA out to the HDMI in on it?

Sorgelig
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:51 am
Location: Russia/Taiwan

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:07 am

ericgus wrote:Do you need a scart cable for the LK362A or can skit it and go from the MiST VGA out to the HDMI in on it?

LKV362A requires SCART connection for analog video input. It also can scale and up/downconvert from HDMI as well, but you will need to find VGA-to-HDMI converter then.

User avatar
Newsdee
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:40 am

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Newsdee » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:51 am

Just ordered a LKV362A. It does seem like the most cost-effective solution.

Cheaper SCART upscalers are bad; I picked one to try and while it works in general, it has a lot of interlacing and lag.
At least it also works with Composite / SVideo; so I have some use for it.

Sorgelig
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:51 am
Location: Russia/Taiwan

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:56 am

Newsdee wrote:Just ordered a LKV362A. It does seem like the most cost-effective solution.

Cheaper SCART upscalers are bad; I picked one to try and while it works in general, it has a lot of interlacing and lag.
At least it also works with Composite / SVideo; so I have some use for it.

Don't you have XRGBMini already?

User avatar
Newsdee
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:40 am

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Newsdee » Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:02 pm

Sorgelig wrote:Don't you have XRGBMini already?

Yes, but I can use a small portable HDMI upscaler when I bring my MiST around. VGA adapter works but has the pixel width problem.

(I also have other SCART devices that benefit from it)

Sorgelig
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:51 am
Location: Russia/Taiwan

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:16 pm

another opensource scaler: http://www.staringlizard.com/2015/09/14/amiv-3/
This looks more capable than OSSC since it has 1MB frame buffer (although it's not enough, IMHO). Unfortunately, it also misses audio injecting part.

User avatar
Newsdee
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:40 am

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Newsdee » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:31 am

So I got the LKV362A but unfortunately it doesn't play nice with my capture card; it complains about HDCP. Maybe I can try an HDMI splitter.
On my TV it works ok although I notice some interlacing issues but less than with a generic SCART upscaler. I do feel using VGA instead of 15khz gives out a much crisper image, so it's a choice of whether you prefer a slightly blurrier image overall, or have the usual VGA issue of having columns slightly fatter than others (not that noticeable on static screens).

Sorgelig
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:51 am
Location: Russia/Taiwan

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:47 pm

I use Avermedia U3 capture with HDCP patch :) The problem with VGA is because it's not VGA actually.
De-interlacer in LKV362A is pretty good. Better than in other similar by price scalers.

Janosch
Atarian
Atarian
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Janosch » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:52 am

Hi,

I received my FrameMeister now, updating to latest english firmware was quite easy and the overlay for the remote is indeed really handy. But a problem stillt remains:

I can't get a proper picture, whatever i do, it's always delivering one of two results: Perfect colors and crisp image but picture partially off screen (basically moved about 1/4 to the bottom) and i can't "move it up" OR the picture is perfectly centered and screen filling BUT has a weird pink tint that is that strong that all colors are rubbish.

I tried a lot options (HDMI vs DVI Output, various resolution, PAL and NTSC in the core, ScanDoubler on/off in the .ini) but can't get that solved. Could anybody let me know some settings i might be able to use as a starting point?

Nevertheless: It's really astonishing what the framemeister is able to deliver in terms of sharpness when upscaling such a nasty source, really impressive!

Thanks a lot and kind regards

jan

User avatar
Newsdee
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:40 am

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Newsdee » Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:23 pm

For the pink tint: leave the MiST running, and powercycle the Framemeister. It fixes it for me.
I've never had an offscreen problem though... is it only with the 50hz cores?

Janosch
Atarian
Atarian
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Janosch » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:06 am

Hi,

i did some further tests yesterday, it looks like it depends on the game i'm running. Some games do work without problems (perfect colors, screen centered) while others do have problems. I initially only just tested Pinball dreams.

Working for me: North & South, Turrican II, Giana Sisters
Not working: Pinball Dreams (pink tint), Pinball Fantasies (colors ok but off center), Turrican I (colors ok, off center)

It happens with the regular minimig core, the AGA version with OS 3.9 is working fine, when starting games using WHDLoad i do have the same problems.

I look like it depends on the resolution / screen setting a specific game is using. Almost every game ist loading fine and only at a certain point the problem starts to occur. When loading pinball dreams for example kick rom is showing up fine (the hand with the blue floppy), fairlight loader is also showing up just fine but as soon as pinball displays the splash screen it's pink.

Tried also older firmware but still no joy. And hints highly appreciated ;-)

Kind regards

Jan

User avatar
Newsdee
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:40 am

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Newsdee » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:35 pm

Did you try turning off the XRGB while the game is running and restarting the XRGB? It is weak at swithing from 60hz to 50hz (Sorry if I repeat myself but maybe my post above wasn't clear)

Sorgelig
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:51 am
Location: Russia/Taiwan

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:18 am

Amiga has very flexible resolution involving overscan space. This is good and bad at the same time. Good - you can have higher resolutions. Bad - every app/game can define resolution depend on what monitor used by developer. This resolution/centering hell is true even for original Amiga HW. I have A1200 with Indivision AGA scaler. Some games like Walker designed with very strange centering to top right. So, if i define visible area as a standard 640x512, then upper and right parts will be cut in Walker. Indivision AGA uses digital signals and pixel clock directly from Amiga Lisa chip, so it eliminates any errors of screen parameters. So it's clearly visible how different games treat screen resolution/center differently.

By the way, i've discovered couple VGA->HDMI scalers which should accept scandoubler MiST output together with native VGA resolutions of wide range. Even possible native PAL/NTSC resolutions will be acceptable through VGA input according to specs. I will order them to try and then will report here.

ericgus
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:53 am
Location: Boston MA - USA

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby ericgus » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:23 pm

Sorgelig wrote:By the way, i've discovered couple VGA->HDMI scalers which should accept scandoubler MiST output together with native VGA resolutions of wide range. Even possible native PAL/NTSC resolutions will be acceptable through VGA input according to specs. I will order them to try and then will report here.


Thanks I look forward to seeing your results..

can you also please test the notorious cores, like PlusTOO (macplus) and the Atari ST core (ntsc/pal -- color / hires b&w) those seem to generate {out of spec?} signals that a great many displays simply won't accept.

mahen
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:11 pm
Location: France

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby mahen » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:32 am

Edit : wrong thread
Amiga user since 1993 ;-)

Sorgelig
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:51 am
Location: Russia/Taiwan

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:10 am

While waiting for scalers i've made some interesting test and result is very promising!

As probably many people know, YPbPr connection has wider range of HSync and actually can support both 15KHz(480i/576i) and 31KHz(480p/576p) sync. But there are 2 problems:
1) It requires Y,Pb,Pr color space instead of R,G,B
2) It requires CSync mixed into Y - and big problem is that CSync should be below 0V (negative polarity).

While (1) is easy to achieve inside FPGA by simple color space conversion, the (2) needs some complex schematic. That was before i found easy single transistor Sync mix to Green (for SyncOnGreen) in some facebook group. I've just tried the same for Y and it really works! And i didn't notice any degradation of Y signal. Although it doesn't work well for HVSync mix, it works fine for CSync. I've tested on one core where i supplied CSync for both original and scandoubler modes - both 576i and 576p work well in YPbPr->HDMI scaler.

I will do some more tests. If YPbPr adapter will work well, i will add option for minst.ini for YPbPr mode and then after small modification in each core, this video output will become another standard.

YPbPr->HDMI scalers are much easier to find and they should support both 15KHz and 31KHz by standard unlike SCART->HDMI or VGA->HDMI which are limited to either 15KHz only or >31KHz only.

Sorgelig
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:51 am
Location: Russia/Taiwan

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:04 am

Forgot to tell one very important advantage of YPbPr connection: 31KHz/50Hz is STANDARD. So basically any TV and any Scaler with YPbPr should work with 50Hz scandoubler mode unlike VGA devices!

User avatar
DrOG
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:23 pm
Location: Gyula, Hungary

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby DrOG » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:02 am

Nice to read about it!!!

It would be a big advantage, both of my LCD TV has 'component in' connector (YPbPr), and my main TV, a Samsung LE40B650 is very picky in aspect of VGA signals: it handles standard VGA resolutions well (mainly NTSC cores with 640x480@60Hz/800x600@60Hz output), but it's enought a small difference from the standard (i.e. the PC Engine core gives out 640x480@59Hz), and the compatibility is over. Not to mention the 'PAL only' cores, i.e. your USSR model reimplementations, which are otherwise fantastic, but the only way for me to enjoy them on big screen is the minimig VGA-to-SCART cable.

The main problem is, that only rought 2/3 of the cores supports the scandoubler_disable=1 option in the mist.ini., and some of the cores has a completely non-standard refresh rate (i.e. the Amstrad CPC with it's 800x600@73Hz).

Thanks for your fantastic work: Gábor

Sorgelig
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:51 am
Location: Russia/Taiwan

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:16 pm

I'm not sure about non-standard refresh rates over Component video. Probably it won't work. But with Component developers have more options for resolutions. I never used Amstrad nor had this computer. If video timings is not important for this computer, then some standard HD resolution can be used like 1280x720 with border.

Sorgelig
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:51 am
Location: Russia/Taiwan

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:18 pm

Here is VGA->Component adapter i'm using right now:
mist_ypbpr.png


I've modified Menu and BK0011M cores to support YPbPr output. Works fine!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Sorgelig
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:51 am
Location: Russia/Taiwan

Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:01 pm

I've tried to use Avermedia U3 capture card from Component - no video. Although scaler works fine. So, the general rule is the same - TV/Scaler should be tolerable for slightly non-standard video like 320/640 lines per field, 48Hz instead of 50Hz.


Social Media

     

Return to “ST(E) Clones (Suska / MiST)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests