MiST VGA upscaling experiments

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DrOG
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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby DrOG » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:51 pm

Thanks for the schematics!

Yes, the BK0011M is the only core that's 31kHz video output can not be handled by my old LG L1734S monitor: it says 'out of range 49Hz'. Perhaps any of the other three USSR models would give more compatible result: their 720x576@50Hz would be acceptable by your capture card!

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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:33 pm

There are several cores with 320 lines per frame. For example ZX core with Pentagon timings also has 320 lines and probably won't work (Only ULA-48/128 will work). That's why using scaler with wider video parameters support is a good thing. Otherwise you will have to find a lot of time and money to find a monitor supporting everything. And at the end you will probably won't be satisfied by monitor itself.

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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Newsdee » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:41 am

Does it need many changes per core?

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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:41 pm

Very minor change. I've made separate module which does all mixing inside. NES and Minimig (in my repository) are already with YPbPr support. I will update all my cores with YPbPr support probably at the end of this week or beginning of next. I'm just waiting for one scaler to test before release.
I can upload some cores here is somebody is willing to test YPbPr.

YPbPr cable info is on WiKi already.
Also, i've discovered, the same cable can be used for RGsB (Sync-On-Green) connection and it doesn't require any change in core. Since transistor does H+V mixing, both RGBS and RGBHV will turn into RGsB signal with this cable.

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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Doozer » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:30 pm

Sorgelig wrote:V
Also, i've discovered, the same cable can be used for RGsB (Sync-On-Green) connection and it doesn't require any change in core. Since transistor does H+V mixing, both RGBS and RGBHV will turn into RGsB signal with this cable.


Hi Sorgelig,

Thank you very much for the work. Is it possible to include a 15KHz RGBHV mode? This is required by some arcade CRT or modified TV sets.

Cheers,

Sorgelig
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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:51 pm

Video signal is done inside FPGA core. So, adding a new video format is not automatic. Every core has to be modified for a new video format. I suggest to use some external HVSync extractor from CSync since 15KHz RGBHV is exotic.

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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:48 pm

Ok. I've got the first scaler from my queue ;)
It's Crestron HD-Scaler. It's not actually consumer product, but it can be found on eBay for very good price. I've got it for 33USD only (unfortunately shipping cost was another 35USD). According to description, this scaler supports many different signals (RGBHV, RGBS, YPbPr, RGsB) with wide sync freqs from 576i50 to 1080p60 with the same connection unlike chinese scalers where you have to plug either to SCART or VGA even if it's the same scaler.
And it really recognizes all RGB/YUV formats. Unfortunately it's very picky to progressive scans and cannot display scandoubler video of 320 lines (BK0011M, ZX with Pentagon timings), although interlaced 320 lines video works well. Also i couldn't make work DBLPAL/DBLNTSC/HD720/HighGFX video modes of Amiga (actually, even on real Amiga i couldn't these modes work with this scaler).
Those cores generating 312 lines with scandoubler works just fine. So, it most likely just Firmware problem. Unfortunately Crestron has strange policy of FW update and doesn't allow to update by anyone but only authorized dealers and partners. So, i cannot update it. For those 320 lines scandoubler modes the scaler recognizes the video format and displays 576p50 in info, but video stays black.
Besides picky to progressive modes, it works really good. Has a lot of video modes to output. A lot of setting of picture scale, position, color adjusments and so on..
There is another model on the way to me - Crestron HD-Scaler-VGA-E - this newer model replaces HD-Scaler in production line. I've got it on eBay as well for the same 30USD. I hope it will be less picky for progressive modes.

Also i will get Atlona AT-HD500 scaler. I've saw this scaler mentioned in this thread and that user stated it supports just everything from MiST he tried. Well, i will see :)

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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:56 pm

Scandoubler mode never been my default display mode for several reasons. Just now i've tried scandoubler in Amiga core and found it as awful. In interlaced video resolutions scandoubler just adds flicker while originally it should remove the flicker.
And it's impossible to remove the flicker from interlace video because it will require frame buffer, and Minimig core occupies almost all FPGA/SDRAM resources already.
So, i still think scandoubler in current implementation in MiST is mostly useless. Either external scaler with resolution and framerate fixing required, or monitor supporting 15KHz and some fluctuations from standard.

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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:50 am

There is a big progress! After contacting Crestron Taiwan i've managed to update HD-Scaler to latest firmware, and now all modes including 320 scandoubled (which not worked before) work!
The only problem now i see is Amiga core with higher resolutions DBLPAL/DBLNTSC/HD720/HighGFX don't work, but i need to investigate it since it possible core problem, not scaler's.

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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby ericgus » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:27 am

Sorgelig wrote:There is a big progress! After contacting Crestron Taiwan i've managed to update HD-Scaler to latest firmware, and now all modes including 320 scandoubled (which not worked before) work!
The only problem now i see is Amiga core with higher resolutions DBLPAL/DBLNTSC/HD720/HighGFX don't work, but i need to investigate it since it possible core problem, not scaler's.


Thanks for the update.. im silently watching with great interest.. (as I am sure a lot of others are) .. please keep posting your results..

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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:21 am

Tested another scaler - LKV353.
With YPbPr connection it works well with scandoubled video. For some strange reason it doesn't work with interlaced 312 lines video while 320 lines interlaced video works well. So, basically this scaler can be used with scandoubled videos. It even supports Amiga high resolution modes, but they look overscaned.

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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby SuperBabyHix » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:18 pm

Sorgelig wrote:The only problem now i see is Amiga core with higher resolutions DBLPAL/DBLNTSC/HD720/HighGFX don't work, but i need to investigate it since it possible core problem, not scaler's.


I can double check if you need, but I was never able to get any of those modes to work on my 15/31Khz CRT monitor.

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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:20 pm

SuperBabyHix wrote:
Sorgelig wrote:The only problem now i see is Amiga core with higher resolutions DBLPAL/DBLNTSC/HD720/HighGFX don't work, but i need to investigate it since it possible core problem, not scaler's.


I can double check if you need, but I was never able to get any of those modes to work on my 15/31Khz CRT monitor.

It looks like core is OK with these modes. It's a scaler which doesn't like these modes. Another scaler LKV353(LKV356) shows At least HD720/HighGFX modes but too overscanned (and Amiga doesn't provide overscan control for these modes). I have real Amiga 1200 and behavior of both scalers are same for MiST and real A1200.

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Re: MiST VGA upscaling experiments

Postby Sorgelig » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:09 am

LKV353 accepts scandoubled RGBHV (48Hz/50Hz) video through VGA input. Although sometimes it's not well centered.


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