Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

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Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby joska » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:35 am

Would it be possible to port the SuperVidel firmware to this board?

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/deca/ ... ment-tools

It has 512Mb RAM, HDMI and ethernet, and the price is very reasonable.
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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby vido » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:03 am

I think the main problem is to get firmware source, not the hardware platform to port it to.

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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby joska » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:37 am

I was hoping that the SuperVidel creators were reading this forum...
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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby vido » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:40 am

I guess they do. Maybe they will change their mind and share the code. As I know by now they refused to share it.

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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby joska » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:52 am

There is also the FireBee Videl code. But that one would require a lot more work to adapt to a real Falcon.
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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby vido » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:56 am

Yes, but I think FireBee Videl code would be way to go if SuperVidel code stays closed.

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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby joska » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:58 am

If this hardware is suitable Nature might be interested in porting the code themselves. They don't have to give it out for free, I'm sure most (all?) CT6x-owners will be happy to pay for such a nice product.
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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby Gaiyan » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:00 am

This would be pretty fantastic on a TT as well.
Image

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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby vido » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:01 am

I agree. I have SuperVidel so I actualy dont care. But FireBee code maybe would be interesting for the MiST if there is enough space left in FPGA.

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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby mikro » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:29 am

How nice! Sometimes I regret I went all the asm/c++ way instead of diving deeper into FPGA. So many amazing possibilities nowadays. Maybe it's not too late... but where to find time.

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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby 1st1 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:35 am

Other idea: Amiga Apollo 68080 team will release it's code for SAGA graphics chipset to Open Source. There is already EmuTOS driver for SAGA. Maybe someone can design a board with SAGA graphics core to fit on CT60(e)? SAGA is capable of FullHD resolutions and 24/32 bit color. There may be some bandwith issue with Cyclone III FPGA to support FullHD and 32 Bit color at the same time at such high busclocks as CT60(e) can run, but one can go to faster FPGA of Cyclone series. This is what 'they' do as well. Then no need anymore to rely on SuperVidel closed source.

If someone interested and capable to do it, just contact and ask Apollo team.

The point would be, that SAGA would be incompatible to original VIDEL modes as long nobody does the related register/video mode mapping into SAGA (in theory it can be VIDEL compatible, the SAGA chipset seems to be very flexible! According to Gunnar v.B. it's only a question of mapping the registers and meanings to the SAGA registers - until that mapping is not done you would needa monitor with two video inputs to swith between Videl and SAGA)
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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby joska » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:14 pm

1st1 wrote:SAGA is capable of FullHD resolutions and 24/32 bit color.


So is both SuperVidel and FireBee Videl, and still compatible with original Videl.
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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby Greenious » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:24 pm

Gaiyan wrote:This would be pretty fantastic on a TT as well.


I would say all Ataris would benefit from a readily available GPU solution. Even though the ST/STE lacks the speed to utilize it fully, the higher resolutions for desktop work is wanted by many, and the existing solutions are based on old ISA hardware that is more or less impossible to source today.

And finding a solution that can be adapted for all ataris, would also improve the economics of making it available for everyone.
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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby wongck » Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:44 pm

Wow... I hope someone clever will make someting out of this hw
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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby alexh » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:09 am

Erm don't mean to burst your bubble but this FPGA has 50,000 LE's and the SuperVidel FPGA has 2,000,000 LE's (i.e. SuperVidel FPGA is ~40x bigger)

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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby mfro » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:57 am

alexh wrote:Erm don't mean to burst your bubble but this FPGA has 50,000 LE's and the SuperVidel FPGA has 2,000,000 LE's (i.e. SuperVidel FPGA is ~40x bigger)

My understanding is that the Xilinx XC3S2000 (that's apparently used in the SuperVidel) has around 46000 LEs and the EP3C40F484C6 (that's used in the FireBee) has 39600 LEs.

I don't know for the SuperVidel, but the FireBee's FPGA config currently uses about 50% of the Cyclone III capacity at most.

On my list, they are pretty much the same league (with the more modern MAX10 design allowing DDR3 memory interfaces maybe even better suited for higher clock speeds).

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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby alexh » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:38 pm

My mistake I had misread the XC3S2000 datasheet which starts with "2M gates".

Yes you are correct, XC3S200 = 46,080 LE and 720Kb of block RAM.

That makes the Max10 on this device comparable if not slightly better.

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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby wongck » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:12 pm

Now that's out of the way.

Wow... I hope someone clever will make something out of this hw
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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby mfro » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:56 pm

Implementing the SuperVidel on this board would probably be, ehm, a waste of resources.

This thing is most likely capable to host a complete (faster) TT (including graphics) and more.

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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby Ragstaff » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:10 pm

I know what you're saying, mfro, but so is the hardware in the original SuperVidel, and the ARM CPU's in the RaspberryPi in Cosmo Ex's, and even the processing power in some adapters that upscale and scan-double video signals from the ST so that we can use modern monitors and TV's. It's hard to avoid solutions these days where much faster and more modern hardware acts as a servant, doing menial tasks, for some ancient, slow Atari hardware... but I think it's something we have to live with.

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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby leech » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:42 pm

Same argument could be said about creating CPU boosters and adding an 060 to a Falcon. It's faster than 90% of the software will ever use. But we still do it because it's fun!

The 'If you build it, they will come' line applies. Whomever builds out a new solution for upgraded graphics, I'm sure people will buy it.

On the note of using SAGA. So if that was adapted to an ST, does that mean we could get Workbench ported to the ST (we already have EmuTOS running on Amiga hardware). Yeah I know, sin! I'm also half joking, I have both anyhow.
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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby mikro » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:39 pm

leech wrote:and adding an 060 to a Falcon. It's faster than 90% of the software will ever use.

As a person who used to use FreeMiNT in 030 mode I can't agree with this one at all. ;-)

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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby leech » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:14 am

Ha, this is true for MiNT / multitasking in general. I first used MiNT on my 4mb Mega STe, and it was pretty painful. Geneva on the other hand was awesome.
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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby 1st1 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:34 pm

joska wrote:
1st1 wrote:SAGA is capable of FullHD resolutions and 24/32 bit color.


So is both SuperVidel and FireBee Videl, and still compatible with original Videl.


SAGA can support all videomodes Videl can do as well, and even more (bitplanes, planar, RGB in different color depths and so on in any resolution up to at least FullHD). Gunnar told, that it is not big job to add Videl compatible registers to SAGA and implement a Videl to SAGA register mapping/translation. I hope we will see it at least with standalone machine.
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Re: Possible cheap SuperVidel hardware

Postby 1st1 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:41 pm

leech wrote:On the note of using SAGA. So if that was adapted to an ST, does that mean we could get Workbench ported to the ST (we already have EmuTOS running on Amiga hardware). Yeah I know, sin! I'm also half joking, I have both anyhow.


Original Amiga OS is closed source (like TOS in theory is as well). But there is AROS and currently it looks like they make it more hardware independent for graphics chipset to support SAGA. So why not Videl support in AROS as well? But graphics is only one thing, both ATARI and Amiga platform are also too different to make them 100% compatible just by loading the OS of the other side. The Apollo standalone couldbe the High-End answer one day as MiST does already today more at Low-End level (High/Low-End is meant in question of system performance!), just boot the ST or Amiga core and you are fully compatible.
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