SuperVidel News

News, Support and Development discussions relating to SuperVidel.

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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby mdivancic » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:40 pm

Thank you!
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby Moulinaie » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:46 am

instream wrote:
Moulinaie wrote:
Dal wrote:For those like me who missed it, some more news was posted three days ago:

Http://nature.atari.org


Two days without possible connection to this site.
So I can't have more infos on the Supervidel that I am waiting for.

I hope it will be soon available again.

Guillaume.

It seems that the whole http://www.atari.org is down, which includes our nature.atari.org. Also, http://www.dhs.nu is down too. I think they are on the same server or internet connection.

I have an updated SuperVidel/Svethlana installation manual that I now can't put on our homepage...

Torbjörn


The site is on line again. I was able to connect to http://nature.atari.org/ this afternoon.
Hope they'll give us some news of the board!

Guillaume;

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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby Dal » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:21 pm

I received an email today asking to confirm my postal address - it seems that my SV is about to be shipped!

The kicker is that my Falcon and CT63 are both still with Rodolphe so I must be patient. :(
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:29 pm

Niiiice! It is gonna be an awesome piece of kit. Thanks for the update :cheers:

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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby Rustynutt » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:49 pm

Dal wrote:I received an email today asking to confirm my postal address - it seems that my SV is about to be shipped!

The kicker is that my Falcon and CT63 are both still with Rodolphe so I must be patient. :(


How long has your Falcon and CT63 been with Rodolphe for work?
Rodolphe suggested I sent my units to him for evaluation, would save me months of analyzing the problem with the board.
I want to send my other CT60 along as well for updates. But then, now the SuperVidel is useless until the CT and Falcon arrives.
I have some suspicious wish to pursue before sending the board over, if only for the comfort components have been replaced.

I think I am at the point of purchasing a o-scope would help isolate problem areas much faster then logic probes and Vmm meters.

Wife has me on a strict retirement budget at the moment, so time passes.
We all have some restraints placed upon us in one form or another :) Even if it is only time and space to work!

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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby Dal » Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:11 pm

My board and CT63 went over to him last March/April. He had a look at it in September, came back to me in December to say it needed a new MPU, I paid him straight away (plus a bit extra as a Christmas gift).

I emailed him at the end of January to see how things were going, he responded straight back to say that he's not been able to do much Atari related stuff.

Rodolphe is self employed so his spare time is governed by his workload. So, if you are going to send stuff over to him, just be mindful of the fact that it could be there for some time, especially if he has a pile of stuff to get through. His work is absolutely A1 plus he is honest with his communication and fair with his pricing. You couldn't ask for anyone better, especially if you have a CT equipped Falcon.

In the UK, there is Stimpy - Ive not used him myself for repairs and not even sure if he still takes them on, but no harm in asking him. Also there is ST-Freakz however I'm not sure he has much (if any) experience of the CT6x.
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby calimero » Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:52 pm

^
I also send two motherboards to Rodolphe. It pass about year until he fix them both. Price was really fair and I pay him a bonus!

You only need to be patient although!


btw there is news at http://nature.atari.org ;)
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby Rustynutt » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:05 pm

Dal wrote:My board and CT63 went over to him last March/April. He had a look at it in September, came back to me in December to say it needed a new MPU, I paid him straight away (plus a bit extra as a Christmas gift).

I emailed him at the end of January to see how things were going, he responded straight back to say that he's not been able to do much Atari related stuff.

Rodolphe is self employed so his spare time is governed by his workload. So, if you are going to send stuff over to him, just be mindful of the fact that it could be there for some time, especially if he has a pile of stuff to get through. His work is absolutely A1 plus he is honest with his communication and fair with his pricing. You couldn't ask for anyone better, especially if you have a CT equipped Falcon.


Oh, no doubt on both parts.
I have a spare (early CT60 don't know what the changes were for the CT63) and two more Falcons. It's more of a dilemma, one is an Afterburner with NOVA, which has been dead reliable since around 1995 and have great reservations about messing with it, and a recent purchase, a never modified (except for an Eagle Sonic easily removed) main board.

I guess, from what I've read, the CT60 is drop in to operate, along with some auto folder apps. Even still, reading back through 10 years of forums do get confused a bit as there seems to be caveats between machines that need to be taken into consideration, some even requiring a working machine sent to Rodolph for the installation. The mistake made flipping a ST RAM card on during the first attempt has me gun shy even with experience working on the Falcon since the Power Up 2 was released, Mighty Sonic, Nemesis, Afterburner, NOVA ATI, Expose, CT2, Falcon Speed and such. For the most part, those all went easily. Think with old age, and the lack of availability of Falcons in general has me overly cautious. My plan was to have a two CT60 Falcons, one with the CTPCI, the other with the SuperVidel. Honestly, I think the SuperVidel is geared to more what I want to do with a Falcon, especially if RGB is implemented as some point. The CTPCI seems to have been stumbling along in development of drivers needed to utilize much beyond a few ATI video cards. I'm sure it's not an easy development process.

What I'm thinking is once the SuperVidel is released, and Doug figures out a patch for Apex to run on the CT60, my Falcon world will be pretty much complete :) As busy as Rodolph is, figure I might as well spend time learning on the third non-working machine how the Falcon works, and replacing components that are available. One of the good things that come with retirement :)

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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby calimero » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:12 pm

especially if RGB is implemented as some point

so SuperVidel does not support RGB right now??
How RGB only games or demos will work? They will send image to standard Falcon video port?? Is there need to reboot Falcon (to disable SuperVidel) to run RGB stuff?
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby Rustynutt » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:49 pm

calimero wrote:
especially if RGB is implemented as some point

so SuperVidel does not support RGB right now??
How RGB only games or demos will work? They will send image to standard Falcon video port?? Is there need to reboot Falcon (to disable SuperVidel) to run RGB stuff?


This is the section in the manual I read.

But if you want to play games which use vertical sync, and especially those who use horizontal sync too
(used for palette swapping), you will need to feed the original motherboard video clock(s) into the
SuperVidel. They are not available as signals on the CT60 connectors, so they must be fed through a
separate small flat cable to the JP7 connector on the SuperVidel. Right now the SuperVidel doesn't support
RGB modes, so we'll just focus on feeding the VGA clock into the SuperVidel here.

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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby shoggoth » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:44 am

calimero wrote:
especially if RGB is implemented as some point

so SuperVidel does not support RGB right now??
How RGB only games or demos will work? They will send image to standard Falcon video port?? Is there need to reboot Falcon (to disable SuperVidel) to run RGB stuff?


This question pops up from time to time. Name a couple productions that REQUIRE RGB and WORKS on the 68060? It's possible that there is one or two or those, but that's it. Prove me wrong :)

Also, what exactly do you mean with "support RGB"? Do you mean "upscale RGB to VGA" or "being able to display graphics on an RGB monitor"? I guess the SuperVidel could "support" RGB by means of an RGB monitor. Right now the XBIOS isn't prepared for it, since it translates RGB modecodes to the VGA equivalent, since this can be used as a workaround for some badly implemented code which doesn't understand big screen resolutions (the initialization code in XaAES, for example).
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby Dal » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:51 am

Certainly 060 demos run better in RGB than VGA.
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby shoggoth » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:54 am

Dal wrote:Certainly 060 demos run better in RGB than VGA.


Are they inherently incompatible with VGA, yet runs properly on the CT60?
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby shoggoth » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:58 am

calimero wrote:
especially if RGB is implemented as some point

so SuperVidel does not support RGB right now??
How RGB only games or demos will work? They will send image to standard Falcon video port?? Is there need to reboot Falcon (to disable SuperVidel) to run RGB stuff?


Basically, if it's a hardware banging production (likely), you'll still get the RGB compatible signals & frequencies on the VIDEL port. Right now the XBIOS will filter RGB resolutions to turn them into their VGA equivalent, but then again people generally bang the VIDEL registers directly so it shouldn't be a problem.
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby Dal » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:06 am

I'm thinking of demos like Silkcut, Starstruck and Ocean Machine (are there others?) which were ported over to the CT60. I can't test them myself right now but I'm not sure they all had the ability to chose VGA as an output.

Any demo will run at a better framerate over RGB than VGA. Don't know if the SV improves that situation?
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby shoggoth » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:28 am

Dal wrote:I'm thinking of demos like Silkcut, Starstruck and Ocean Machine (are there others?) which were ported over to the CT60. I can't test them myself right now but I'm not sure they all had the ability to chose VGA as an output.

Any demo will run at a better framerate over RGB than VGA. Don't know if the SV improves that situation?


Well, if we're talking about these particular demos, MiKRO can most probably be persuaded to add a single line of code to make these demos use fast SuperVidel RAM instead of STRAM for the framebuffer, and they'll be faster than they would be on RGB. If we're lucky perhaps he could even get rid of the C2P conversion and use a native SuperVidel 8bpp chunky mode. Time will tell.

I'm very aware that you get a slightly better framerate on RGB on the VIDEL, but then again this is a graphics card designed for high resolutions and new pixel formats - AND it offers VIDEL compatibility. You can still use VIDEL stuff on the VGA/DVI outputs on the SuperVidel, and most probably you can run your RGB stuff as well, just use the original VIDEL output on the motherboard.

The VIDEL isn't switched off at all, it runs at the same time as the SuperVidel, it's just that the SuperVidel "listens" to the VIDEL hardware register set and mimics what the VIDEL would do. The VIDEL is still there. The VIDEL output is still there. Possibly minor differences in the XBIOS implementation (which I've mentioned earlier in this thread) could cause some mishaps related to RGB stuff, but if this turns out to be a real (and not theoretical) problem, the code can be altered to whatever behavior we want/need.
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby Dal » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:00 am

Are you saying that if I have a RGB monitor connected to the onboard VIDEL and VGA connected to the SV, then RGB and VGA output would be automatically sent to the correct monitor? If so, I can certainly live with that and see it as a better solution in all honesty.
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby calimero » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:11 am

Name a couple productions that REQUIRE RGB and WORKS on the 68060?


shoggoth wrote: AND it offers VIDEL compatibility. You can still use VIDEL stuff on the VGA/DVI outputs on the SuperVidel, and most probably you can run your RGB stuff as well, just use the original VIDEL output on the motherboard.


thanks for clarification! it make sense.

so if I turn off CT63, SuperVidel is also turned off? right?

my concern was old demos from 90s, like Lost Blub, Evolution... but I did not try them with CT63 anyway (I'm pretty sure they will not work with CT63) :)

EDIT: dal was faster! :D

is it possible something like that??? (anyway, my plan was to connect old Commodore 1084 monitor to original Videl port (for games and demos), and huge LCD monitor to SuperVidel port for desktop/GEM stuff).
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby shoggoth » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:11 am

Dal wrote:Are you saying that if I have a RGB monitor connected to the onboard VIDEL and VGA connected to the SV, then RGB and VGA output would be automatically sent to the correct monitor? If so, I can certainly live with that and see it as a better solution in all honesty.


The VIDEL isn't switched off. If an application writes to the VIDEL hardware register, the VIDEL will react to it just like it would before. So if an application writes an RGB resolution to the VIDEL hardware registers, this will be visibible on an RGB-monitor connected to the VIDEL output. At the same time, the SuperVidel will get the very same information, but the resulting screenmode will be out of range on a VGA or DVI monitor connected to the SuperVidel output.

As I said before, it also depends a bit on the application. Ironically, the above behavior is true for hardware-banging applications, but "clean" stuff would go through the XBIOS, and the SuperVidel XBIOS will try to turn RGB modes into their VGA counterpart, and that will affect the VIDEL output as wel. That's a deliberate design decision, but if it turns out to be a bad decision i practice, it can be changed.
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby Dal » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:25 am

Thanks for clearing that up. To me that sounds like the best approach. I can (in theory at least) have monitors attached to both video outputs and no need to switch cables around or employ some kind of hardware switch on the odd occasion I need to use RGB.

If you do decide in the future to implement RGB support in the SV, then please make sure you implement the ability to switch it back to 'classic' mode for those of us who would prefer to run RGB from VIDEL ;)
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby shoggoth » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:37 am

calimero wrote:thanks for clarification! it make sense.


Clarificarions are needed; the SuperVidel IS very different from other graphics cards for the Atari.

so if I turn off CT63, SuperVidel is also turned off? right?


The SuperVidel is on the 68060 bus, so for natural reasons it can't be active in 030 mode.

is it possible something like that??? (anyway, my plan was to connect old Commodore 1084 monitor to original Videl port (for games and demos), and huge LCD monitor to SuperVidel port for desktop/GEM stuff).


I can't see a reason why this wouldn't work but there IS one catch, which is:
- RGB monitors can't display VGA modes.
- VGA monitors can't display RGB modes.

The SuperVidel will mimic the VIDEL. So if the VIDEL and TOS4 thinks you're using an RGB monitor, the system boots into an RGB mode. And RGB modes can't be displayed on VGA/DVI monitors attached to the SuperVidel. If the VIDEL and TOS4 thinks you're on a VGA monitor, the system boots into VGA mode, which are displayed on the DVI/VGA SuperVidel output. So please remember, the SuperVIDEL is a VIDEL on steroids, not a bridgeboard to a PC VGA chipset.

So even if it's technically possible, it will be a bit awkward! But nothing is impossible.
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby calimero » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:15 pm

shoggoth wrote:The VIDEL isn't switched off. If an application writes to the VIDEL hardware register, the VIDEL will react to it just like it would before. So if an application writes an RGB resolution to the VIDEL hardware registers, this will be visibible on an RGB-monitor connected to the VIDEL output. At the same time, the SuperVidel will get the very same information, but the resulting screenmode will be out of range on a VGA or DVI monitor connected to the SuperVidel output.

so same data* will be writen to ST-Ram (for Videl) and to SD-RAM on SuperVidel?

*data=pixel data.
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby shoggoth » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:24 pm

calimero wrote:so same data* will be writen to ST-Ram (for Videl) and to SD-RAM on SuperVidel?

*data=pixel data.


ST-RAM is mirrored in SuperVidel video RAM; the SuperVidel snoopes ("listens for") CPU writes to STRAM, and replicates this in SuperVidel video RAM. That's why it is capable of displaying graphics modes which appear to be located in STRAM. It is in fact displaying a copy of this data. The snooping happens entirely in the background, it doesn't take any processing time.
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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby Rustynutt » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:42 pm

Kind of a related question. Is Alternate RAM on the CT60 loaded into the system with MALLOC, ie, available with the CT60 off or on?
Who controls the alternate ram? I never followed up hardware design on the CT series, other than to look at schematic routing.

If not, then some of my configuration plans are forming. I want to utilize the Expose card, which has been noted to work underside the CT60.
However, without Apex Media compatibility (what is the purpose of the card if not for that application?), and RGB video modes not supported (sure, APEX works in VGA, AIRC has limitations in that mode), and without alternate RAM to capture too, the ideal configuration for that set up remains an Afterburner, with Alternate RAM, easily running either VIDEL or quickly booting to NOVA drivers for graphics editing outside of VIDEL graphics.

Not debating the usefulness of the implementation of the SuperVidel, only now the primary purpose for at least one of the Falcons here looks like it will continue to be an Afterburner, Expose, and NOVA ATI MACH 64 for functionality.

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Re: SuperVidel News

Postby shoggoth » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:42 pm

Rustynutt wrote:Kind of a related question. Is Alternate RAM on the CT60 loaded into the system with MALLOC, ie, available with the CT60 off or on?


The F030 bus on the motherboard has 23 address pins + high/low data strobes. That means it's limited to 16 megs, and that's 16 megs of ST RAM. It can't possibly access the CT60 SDRAM.

However, without Apex Media compatibility (what is the purpose of the card if not for that application?), and RGB video modes not supported (sure, APEX works in VGA, AIRC has limitations in that mode), and without alternate RAM to capture too, the ideal configuration for that set up remains an Afterburner, with Alternate RAM, easily running either VIDEL or quickly booting to NOVA drivers for graphics editing outside of VIDEL graphics.


RGB video modes not supported, well, to be honest - this is a graphics card designed fore high screen resolutions and modern monitors. VIDEL output is still available, and exactly how it can be used remains to be seen, but the VIDEL *isn't* switched "off". It's still there. So in theory you could run RGB stuff on it. But if that's your usage scenario, then why would you want a SuperVidel to begin with?

The APEX sources have been released, so it shouldn't be too difficult for anyone to patch it to support higher screen resolutions on VGA screens, and to support the SuperVidel.

Not debating the usefulness of the implementation of the SuperVidel, only now the primary purpose for at least one of the Falcons here looks like it will continue to be an Afterburner, Expose, and NOVA ATI MACH 64 for functionality.


Does the Nova support APEX and RGB modes?
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