Page 2 of 3

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:10 pm
by alexh
alexh wrote:But it was listed in the demo competition!? Should have been either WILD or Animation category.

When I wrote this I assumed Fenarinarsa was the artist who drew the animation and composed the music. I was not familiar with the source material. I had also assumed that it was uncompressed video/audio being streamed from drive.

Thanks for the production and following it up with an enjoyable to read technical description.

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:55 pm
by Estrayk
cool work fenarinarsa !

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:25 am
by DarkLord
Ignore the gainsayers - we want more!!! :)

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:26 am
by FedePede04
yes who care about sizes these days :lol: it is more important that we get great stuff like this :D

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:33 am
by RetroNother
I like it very much! Thank you!
... and btw it was the time I heared about "Big Apple!!". The history behind this movie/music/demo is very interesting, if you think about it, that everything started with a little tune in stage 3 of some video game and then became viral ...

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:35 am
by rmd
Zorro 2 wrote:For me, you should have been on WILD compo but I don't care, there were much and great ST productions at this party :)

For me it belongs to the demo compo after reading his technical post, it does sounds like some serious hacking :cheers:

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:40 pm
by calimero
fenarinarsa wrote:
AdamK wrote:I like your prod a lot. I have one question: it seems that yo're not using whole screen, how much does that save?


Yes I do, it's 320x200 so it's the whole regular screen.
The borders can't be used unless you use fullscreen techniques, but they're not compatible with disk loading (HDD loading uses DMA, which borks the synchronization needed to do fullscreen).


When I first time saw Bad Apple few years ago, my first though was: this would be awesome on ST and SM124 hi res monitor! :D

What do you think fenarinarsa, it is possible?


So far we have only one SM124 demo for ST...

Thanks!

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:41 pm
by joska
calimero wrote:So far we have only one SM124 demo for ST...


I'm quite sure that there's a lot more than one monochrome-demo out there. I remember seeing several in the early 90's.

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:48 pm
by calimero
joska wrote:
calimero wrote:So far we have only one SM124 demo for ST...


I'm quite sure that there's a lot more than one monochrome-demo out there. I remember seeing several in the early 90's.


Like that demo from Application System Heidelberg ?

http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=11657 :D


...I do not remember mono demos from 90s. I know only for Monogatari by Cerebral Vortex.

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:59 pm
by joska
These are the ones I remember:

http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=20897
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=19910
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=19953

There were also several megademos with mono-screens. The European Demo was one, but I'm quite sure that there were more.

But of course, none of these comes close to Monogatari. No surprise really, modern demos are much more technically advanced than any old-school demo.

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:25 pm
by troed
And of course the absolutely awesome Audio Sculpture v1.5 cracktro by SYNC also runs in mono, since AS itself does ... ;)

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:41 pm
by AdamK

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:22 am
by fenarinarsa
Yes, as I said before a monochrome version is completely possible.

It needs some modifications of the generator to take into account the longer lines in memory and the higher number of lines. Also I'm not sure of the best way to handle the difference of framerate. In lowres it was easy, I switch to 60Hz so I can keep the original 30fps. In highres, I don't even know the exact refresh rate (70Hz ? 71Hz ?). My guess is that it would be better to call for a render for each ST vbl and add dummy frames in the file when needed (= 4 bytes + audio). Else the audio won't work correctly as it is handled now.

And unfortunately I can't test on real hw since I don't have any ST>VGA mono cable.

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:18 am
by Orion_
calimero wrote:So far we have only one SM124 demo for ST...

You mean, this one ? :)
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62120
I guess, the first "real" demo for monochrome screen on ST

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:00 am
by calimero
fenarinarsa wrote:Yes, as I said before a monochrome version is completely possible.

It needs some modifications of the generator to take into account the longer lines in memory and the higher number of lines. Also I'm not sure of the best way to handle the difference of framerate. In lowres it was easy, I switch to 60Hz so I can keep the original 30fps. In highres, I don't even know the exact refresh rate (70Hz ? 71Hz ?). My guess is that it would be better to call for a render for each ST vbl and add dummy frames in the file when needed (= 4 bytes + audio). Else the audio won't work correctly as it is handled now.

And unfortunately I can't test on real hw since I don't have any ST>VGA mono cable.


There are plenty ST to VGA cables and there is a list of TFT monitors that support ST-High (unfortunate atari wiki does not work for some time so I do not know what is the link with database of monitors that support ST resolution).

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:53 am
by Tramielson
Nice demo.
I can use my ST and STE with my 8 years old LCD monitor, in monokrom mode - 640x400 . Even newer monitors can do it.

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:21 pm
by susher
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work on my 4MB STE with UltraSATAN and HDDriver 10.10. It just stops on the intro screen with only a little of the "progress bar" showing.

It does the same from the UltraSATAN on my TT030 but runs until it tries to play the sound/video on the next screen (understandably) if run from the SCSI hard disk.

Maybe an HDDriver+ACSI+UtraSATAN issue?

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:45 pm
by susher
susher wrote:Maybe an HDDriver+ACSI+UtraSATAN issue?


It was, sort of. I didn't have the "Verify" buffer turned on. Once it was it worked. Strange.

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:50 pm
by CiH
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work on my 4MB STE with UltraSATAN and HDDriver 10.10. It just stops on the intro screen with only a little of the "progress bar" showing.

I think there is a option on the HD Driver util/settings prog that needs to be selected, something to do with making the drive ASCI compatible, can't recall what menu it is under and I don't have an Atari set up currently to check.

If it is what I think it is, it will fix the issue. It affects a number of other productions as well, XIA's Talk Talk 2 demo springs to mind.

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:25 pm
by Atari030
Nice effort. Definitely want more, please.

On the subject of mono demos, are there any for the TT?

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:41 pm
by MM41
Very nice STe version of Bad Apple Fenarinarsa :D , seen with my slow Satandisk with bigs pauses to load the code.

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:49 pm
by fenarinarsa
MM41 wrote:Very nice STe version of Bad Apple Fenarinarsa :D , see with my slow Satandisk with bigs pauses to load the code.


Great, that means my low buffer detection works :p

susher wrote:Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work on my 4MB STE with UltraSATAN and HDDriver 10.10. It just stops on the intro screen with only a little of the "progress bar" showing.
It does the same from the UltraSATAN on my TT030 but runs until it tries to play the sound/video on the next screen (understandably) if run from the SCSI hard disk.
Maybe an HDDriver+ACSI+UtraSATAN issue?


It won't work on TT030 anyway, I use the blitter, STE full video addressing and I change the SR value during a rte (Timer B), which is not compatible with the 68030 AFAIK. Everything can be changed to be TT-compatible but I don't know if the instruction cache will allow to execute the generated code that is loaded from disk for each frame. Is data changed by DMA taken into account by the 68030 cache?

I don't have HDDriver so I couldn't test it, I only have Ppera's drivers. Since it's regular GEMDOS calls it's a bit of a mystery to me :shrug:
Note that when I use Ppera's drivers on Hatari with an ACSI image, it also hangs during the first load.

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:27 pm
by fenarinarsa

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:40 am
by BlankVector
fenarinarsa wrote:Making-of video

Absolutely great tutorial! We want more :D

Re: Bad Apple by Fenarinarsa (Atari STe demo) !!!!!

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:13 am
by joska
fenarinarsa wrote:Making-of video


Very interesting! It gave me some ideas.